Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

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Föust

Member

12-02-2010

Thank you for taking the time to post this, I enjoyed reading it. I even learned something. :O


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RegAlGhul

Senior Member

12-03-2010

This really puts everything into perspective, but not in a good way. The biggest problem I have is with the perceived notion that having to read up on a game to learn effective counters is bad game design, especially given the competitive element these games in particular bring to the table. Learning about a game is fun, and it rewards players for forming up think tanks or researching the game to figure out how to maximize the utility of the character or finding out effective counters to characters they were having trouble with. We got MURDERED the first time my pre-made encountered a Mordekaiser, but instead of b*tching for a nerf on the forums, we used him during free week and figured out that it's a really DUMB idea to engage Mordekaiser without Crowd Control in a wave of minions. When we were starting out, Master Yi was a b*tch to deal with, but now we know to pick on him when he's low-level and thus gimp him come late game. Right now I have a major problem with Tryndamere. I see the b@stard in every game I play and if he knows his stuff it's gonna be a long, frustrating game. But you know what? It's another hurdle I'm going to deal with. Coordinating with your team during the endless rage (Or getting him to pop endless before the carry shows up) is just something for which I haven't gotten the pattern down yet. You tote anti-fun like the Ark of the Covenant, but from what I get, "fun" is, "I want to faceroll any champ I come across without having to have actually played the champion or looked at ways to counter him." I make it a point to look into the new champs and see how their existence in the game is going to impact the champs that I main. If that's frustrating for some players, then I think I deserve to kick the everloving **** out of them in solo queue. I DID my homework, I think I'm entitled to an inherent advantage over the casual gamer who mains Sona so he can press buttons and feel like he did something important at the end of the game.

Also, I find it very disturbing how you treat some of these response with glib remarks that basically boil down to "I'm a pro designer, who are you? Lol." You work for a game design company, that does not make you a professional. 3D Realms had game designers working for them and the fiscal backing of Take2 Interactive, but 3D Realms' Duke Nukem Forever team was anything BUT professional. Duke Nukem Forever has become the epitome of vaporware (Hopefully to be redeemed by having the game developed by true professionals) and the butt of thousands of video game jokes across the internet. Just because you have a job as a developer for the time being doesn't grant you an argument trump card. I don't know if this a MOBA/RTS community sort of thing, but I don't see how being caustic and elitist towards your clients, regardless of how snarky they might get, makes for a good mission statement. It's your job as the "professional" to maintain a calm and courteous demeanor no matter no irate some of your playerbase may get, and I'm not really seeing that here. What I see is a borderline soapbox about what you don't like about certain video games and a lot of subjective arguments being backed up by nothing more than the red lettering above your avatar.

EDIT: Oh, and if you're serious about removing flash, then my lack of faith in your definition of "fun" is completely founded. Few things trump the satisfaction of successfully juking a 5-man gank with 20 hp left, and I can't help but applaud a well-placed flash when I'm the one losing out on such a gank. This summoner skill is so integral to so many characters that removing it would ruin the utility of several champs overnight.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

12-07-2010
157 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by RegAlGhul View Post
This really puts everything into perspective, but not in a good way. The biggest problem I have is with the perceived notion that having to read up on a game to learn effective counters is bad game design, especially given the competitive element these games in particular bring to the table.
Most complex games will cause you to get better when you read up, and LoL is the same way. What LoL does not require you do though is read up to understand what is occurring in the game.

Quote:
Learning about a game is fun, and it rewards players for forming up think tanks or researching the game to figure out how to maximize the utility of the character or finding out effective counters to characters they were having trouble with.
Which is not what I am debating, I agree with you. But that is not what burden of knowledge is about. Having players learn to get better is great, but having players require out-of-game learning to figure out what is happening to their character is not desirable.

Ignoring the personal attack about me being a jerk, and going to your next actual point of debate...

Quote:
EDIT: Oh, and if you're serious about removing flash, then my lack of faith in your definition of "fun" is completely founded. Few things trump the satisfaction of successfully juking a 5-man gank with 20 hp left, and I can't help but applaud a well-placed flash when I'm the one losing out on such a gank. This summoner skill is so integral to so many characters that removing it would ruin the utility of several champs overnight.
I think that the difficulty of executing a typical flash escape is far lower than the difficulty of executing a proper 2 man gank that will kill you if not for flash. Additionally, flash leads to a much more passive play experience, where players just don't get rewarded for trying to be aggressive in the early and midgame because flash foils it. Is it 'fun' to spend 60 seconds setting up a gank, waiting for the lane to push, and initiating perfectly to have flash nullify the whole thing, and then have you lose a ton of XP and gold while you walk back to your lane?

It also creates a variety of cheesy situations, like riskless dragon attempts for a blue jungler with flash, etc.


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hyliandanny

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Senior Member

12-07-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
I think that the difficulty of executing a typical flash escape is far lower than the difficulty of executing a proper 2 man gank that will kill you if not for flash. Additionally, flash leads to a much more passive play experience, where players just don't get rewarded for trying to be aggressive in the early and midgame because flash foils it. Is it 'fun' to spend 60 seconds setting up a gank, waiting for the lane to push, and initiating perfectly to have flash nullify the whole thing, and then have you lose a ton of XP and gold while you walk back to your lane?

It also creates a variety of cheesy situations, like riskless dragon attempts for a blue jungler with flash, etc.
How is setting up a gank difficult?

EDIT: Honestly curious. That's not sarcasm. What I see is opponent (no control on my behalf) overextending. Teammate (no control, simple execution on their part) changing proximity to target. If the opponent overextends, positioning on behalf of the non-laner can actually cut off most any escape mechanism, with Ghost being the most effective (in my experience).

So could you explain how that's more difficult? Perhaps you're considering a case where someone is close enough to the tower to certainly eliminate a gank -- in which case, I wonder why the gank is being executed at all.

-Danny
inclined to draw a diagram


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Chingmeister

Senior Member

12-07-2010

I have noticed that very few players like to actually jungle, and fewer are willing to gaurd the jungle at the start of the game. The jungling experience is mostly right click and wait, with the notable exception of MF kite/jungling. The gaurding experience is to just sit in a bush. However, jungling is a requirement at higher level play, with more than a few games decided on load screen by the lack of a jungler, or at level 1 by the lack of players willing to gaurd the jungle.

Any thoughts on balancing (nerfing) the jungle?


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

12-07-2010
158 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyliandanny View Post
How is setting up a gank difficult?

EDIT: Honestly curious. That's not sarcasm. What I see is opponent (no control on my behalf) overextending. Teammate (no control, simple execution on their part) changing proximity to target. If the opponent overextends, positioning on behalf of the non-laner can actually cut off most any escape mechanism, with Ghost being the most effective (in my experience).

So could you explain how that's more difficult? Perhaps you're considering a case where someone is close enough to the tower to certainly eliminate a gank -- in which case, I wonder why the gank is being executed at all.

-Danny
inclined to draw a diagram
The difficulty is in knowing that your gank WOULD work and that vulnerability does (vs does not) exist. It also comes in getting there without the opponent figuring out you are likely to be ganking them right then.

I think those are harder than hanging out next to a cliff and pressing D, or worse yet, being in the middle of the lane and pressing D.


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Stexe

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Adjudicator

12-07-2010

Wouldn't completely removing Flash from the game promote a more passive play style? Knowing you don't have a semi-"Get Out of Jail Free" ability would mean you would stay near towers more, venture out less, and place more wards (resulting in less money to buy items and longer stalemate games).


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xLithiYum

Senior Member

12-07-2010

kennen ult+zhonyas seems very anti


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KillinUrDoodz

Senior Member

12-07-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stexe View Post
Wouldn't completely removing Flash from the game promote a more passive play style? Knowing you don't have a semi-"Get Out of Jail Free" ability would mean you would stay near towers more, venture out less, and place more wards (resulting in less money to buy items and longer stalemate games).
Certainly I would not be able to play Annie nearly as aggressively, and that would seriously mess her up.

Making towers weaker would equally well make the game more aggressive without messing with champions like Annie. I mean, there already are so many champions that can do it at level 6, it's not such a bad thing to make them weaker.


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The Reaver

Senior Member

12-07-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stexe View Post
Wouldn't completely removing Flash from the game promote a more passive play style? Knowing you don't have a semi-"Get Out of Jail Free" ability would mean you would stay near towers more, venture out less, and place more wards (resulting in less money to buy items and longer stalemate games).
But then you wouldn't get anywhere in laning. Farming is important, too, you know, and removing Flash causes people to take more risks in order to farm.