Regarding Pantheon

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The Council

12-03-2010

I made a post in the main hotfix thread, but I felt it worth reposting in a separate thread so that it may be more directly considered and addressed. Respond as you will.

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Couple things.

1. Pantheon was good before this patch. He received a moderate, but not huge, amount of play. In particular, he was exceedingly good in lane thanks to his Q, and his ability to effectively zone the vast majority of other champions in the game. He tended to drop off a little late game, unless the match was already severely skewed.

2. The buff to Pantheon weakened his Q most significantly early on, and transferred that power to his E, and then some. More than that, it allowed Pantheon to level up E and W as primaries, and ignore Q, which granted him a stronger stun in the laning phase (where it makes the most impact). Further, his scaling on the whole was buffed, and he snowballed much more easily, and much harder when he did. He basically got the Corki treatment, in that he was a fairly good but ignored champion who was suddenly propelled into the spotlight by one buff.

3. The popular arguments as to why his E wasn't overbuffed tend to feature some odd assumptions. The Pantheon player is almost always bad, and the opposing player is almost always good; therefore the Pantheon player will not take advantage of any strategic options (such as his built-in stun, or brush) that he has available, and just spam E whenever it's up, allowing the opposing player to freely manipulate him. Although it seems too obvious to state, this is rarely the case.
The Pantheon is also often apparently in vacuum, since proponents of his current state seem to rarely consider the fact that he has 4 other people on his team who, more often than not, are making an effort to make sure Pantheon doesn't die, and has good opportunities to unload his damage, not to mention dealing damage of their own.
As such, the arguments come across as just somewhat... odd. In the majority of cases, it sounds like the arguers in question have not in fact played the game with Pantheon. How often, honestly, does a Pantheon run up to you, Aegis uncharged, and hit E in such a position that you can immediately dart out of its cone? How often is the Pantheon's team so incompetent or underfarmed that it can be deemed advisable to dump everything you have on him, and not be at a major disadvantage facing the rest of them? How often is it really a good idea to "just stack some armor" on a champion who has no good items that build out of good armor items, and additionally are still able to keep up in damage and fulfilling their primary role?

4. Since the patch, Pantheon is on permaban status in ranked games. Everyone I have spoken to personally, both Council and not, agrees that Pantheon was overbuffed. Period. There is no argument on that count with any of them.

I understand people who play Pantheon may feel strongly about him, but really? I disagreed with the speed of the LeBlanc nerf hotfix, but I truly cannot fathom the opposition to this, unless I and everyone I know are somehow playing a different game than the forum community at large. No offense, but the defenders of Pantheon's buff strike me as far more reactionary than those against it.


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Razeluxe

Senior Member

12-03-2010

Umm when Panth was Q based, he leveled up Q and W. Now hes leveling up W and E, the stun has stayed the same.


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KAWAlI

Member

12-03-2010

Panth mainers won't comment, they'll just keep rapidly downvoting any topic with the truth in it.


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The Council

12-03-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Razeluxe View Post
Umm when Panth was Q based, he leveled up Q and W. Now hes leveling up W and E, the stun has stayed the same.
Eh, yeah, you probably have a point there. I tend to favor grabbing one level of a tertiary skill at 4, which does slightly slow the progression of the secondary. That's not necessarily always a good idea though, so that particular point is definitely debatable. Thanks for mentioning it.


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Pika Fox

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Senior Member

12-03-2010

his HSS doesnt do a lot of damage still... and its all his damage. after he stuns and HSSs, if you arent dead, he usually will be because his CD on HSS means he cant do a lot more than auto attack. his HSS can barely take out a carry, unless the carry is underleveled to hell. on top of that, a small ammount of armor counters it... and unless im playing yi or tryn... i have some armor. if im playing yi, i have enough lifesteal to go back to full health if he didnt kill me before he gets his HSS back.... oh no wait... i can kill a cho gath with 6k hp in the duration of yis ult... yeah.... panth is long gone in that 1v1.

on top of that, whi in thier right mind would be protecting thier panth? you have better people on your team usually you should protect.... like sivir, who is constantly doing high damage to everyone.

tl;dr.... panth is nowhere near op....


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Virginity

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Senior Member

12-03-2010

I only level Q and E now. W I keep at level 1. Also, pre buff, his E does 180% AD scaling through the whole HSS duration. Now it does 240% AD scaling. So it's not a big deal. It's just better than auto attacking, that's all.


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Over 9000 Skills

Senior Member

12-03-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pika Fox View Post
tl;dr.... panth is nowhere near op....
Disagreed, a pantheon tower dived me and 2 other squishies and triple killed with HSS before walking away unscathed because he blocked the single hit the tower threw at him.


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Virginity

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Senior Member

12-03-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Over 9000 Skills View Post
Disagreed, a pantheon tower dived me and 2 other squishies and triple killed with HSS before walking away unscathed because he blocked the single hit the tower threw at him.
That, my friend, is what happens when you feed Pantheon.


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Tulki

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Senior Member

12-03-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Over 9000 Skills View Post
Disagreed, a pantheon tower dived me and 2 other squishies and triple killed with HSS before walking away unscathed because he blocked the single hit the tower threw at him.
Within the channel time of HSS, the tower would have shot at least two times - most likely 3 or 4.

Exaggerating is awwwesome.


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SmashGizmo

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QA Analyst

12-03-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by UVladbrolaf View Post
Panth mainers won't comment, they'll just keep rapidly downvoting any topic with the truth in it.
what comment do you want? he was probably a little bit over buffed, but he was ultimately still just pantheon and after the hotfix, he's still just Pantheon. I honestly like the change because previously there wasn't a reason to level E, the scaling didn't make sense (jack up the base damage, reduce the scaling, wtfbbq?) but I ultimately don't think it's gonna make a difference. people'll still get towerdived by pantheon and they'll still QQ that he hits too hard. it's just the feeling that the character evokes. you get numb to it after awhile as a Pantheon player.

all you haters can blow me, Pantheon's a fun character and he was balanced at pretty much every point in time (yes, even when bugged). he's been slightly ahead and slightly behind the curve, but he's never been broken nor underpowered.


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