(Guide)AP Shaco: Toggle the Clown!

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T0ggle

Member

12-23-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnronTheGreat View Post
Stop making me reply to these with baits!!

I dont think anyone is noob for playing AP shaco (Although i think myself that AD is better, for reasons I've outlined in various other posts). Pick whichever one you enjoy playing as. I am curious as to why you are so adamant that AP is superior however.

My comments were directed to you, but as everyone keeps talking about you playing well im begining to think you just had a sieries of bad matches. And you never once directed anything toward me in chat regarding my play, i think the last game i was busy throwing heals on you constantly with nadilee....
AP does more damage then AD when played correctly, what else is there to compare?
About bad matches, you have no idea....Lately every pub i've been in has had idiots, and I severly hate idiots.


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Stimraug

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Senior Member

12-23-2009

Me and 3 of my friends played last night with T0ggle and he acted totally contrary to what one might expect due to Enron's posts. He was helpful, gave hints, never said anything rude, advised (among other builds) on my shaco build and directed the teamfights. We won a few games in a row and lost only one, which was a tough fight even then. Now there's a chance for Enron to argue that due to "T0ggle's huge ego" he bossed us around in teamfights. However, this is not the case. He was more of a guide than someone in charge.

A very talented and friendly player in our experience.


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Zeero

Senior Member

12-23-2009

I think the AP vs AD argument is kind of silly. It's based on what you like and your play style.

Me personally, I have played AD shaco for a long time and liked it. I read this guide and decided to finally try AP shaco and liked it even more.

IMO AP shaco is better at doing what I feel shacos job is. Ganking, harassing, killing. I find that as AP shaco I can do all of these things more effectively. I feel more confident in what I feel is my job as shaco.

Just last night I made a nice little nest of JitB by our turret and insta gibbed a scion with 2600HP which was hilarious. People are actually afraid fo your JitB and your shiv is a very hard hitting nuke/slow. Not to mention that hallucinate is basically a time bomb rather than an annoying tickle.

Thank you for the guilde, it works well and has opened my eyes to a new side of shaco that I had never tried. Both are viable but IMO AP shaco is superior in most situations.


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SpamsLaugh

Senior Member

12-23-2009

Great guide for an AP Shaco. Good points on AP over AD when it comes to team fights.

As for everyone else trolling, troll outside his guide. Even if Toggle did play badly, which he may or may not, it's a fact that his guide reads well and does what it is supposed to do.

Good guide and thanks, maybe I'll try a Shaco when he's in rotation.


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EnronTheGreat

Senior Member

12-23-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stimraug View Post
Me and 3 of my friends played last night with T0ggle and he acted totally contrary to what one might expect due to Enron's posts. He was helpful, gave hints, never said anything rude, advised (among other builds) on my shaco build and directed the teamfights. We won a few games in a row and lost only one, which was a tough fight even then. Now there's a chance for Enron to argue that due to "T0ggle's huge ego" he bossed us around in teamfights. However, this is not the case. He was more of a guide than someone in charge.

A very talented and friendly player in our experience.
*Game expieriences may change due to online play*

Sieriously though, this is probly a good ap guide for a solo queue AP shaco in everything up to hi elo range games. The problem I have is that when, in high ELO games, where the dragon fight is pretty much a must...Its going to NOT be viable that shaco is absent in the team fight, while he tries to stack jitbs to get the golem buff. Having a player absent (especially a good ganker like shaco) is going to hurt pretty bad.

So, let's assume he is at the team fight @ dragon. What skill are you going to start out with? Imo, decieve is a much better first skill then jitb in this situation, it offers much more. Especially since the other team will more than likely clarity the area and see a jitb nest in the bushes if you manage to run over there quickly, not get ganked, and stack boxes for an extended period of time. Decieve lets you blink to finish off low hp runners, get out of an imminent death situation, and delivers a big damage boost with the guaranteed crit and bonus damage. Also in regards to runes, since you are not AD damage i would completely skip the crit damage and just add more ap/magic pen since your are not going to be adding any +dmg items during the match.

So besides my initial problem (which i am now attributing to a bad day or two for him) I just dont see how you can say AP is SUPERIOR to AD when the best shaco players usually run ad (And those other points I brought up). I could be wrong though, but thats just what stands out to me.


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T0ggle

Member

12-23-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnronTheGreat View Post
*Game expieriences may change due to online play*

Sieriously though, this is probly a good ap guide for a solo queue AP shaco in everything up to hi elo range games. The problem I have is that when, in high ELO games, where the dragon fight is pretty much a must...Its going to NOT be viable that shaco is absent in the team fight, while he tries to stack jitbs to get the golem buff. Having a player absent (especially a good ganker like shaco) is going to hurt pretty bad.

So, let's assume he is at the team fight @ dragon. What skill are you going to start out with? Imo, decieve is a much better first skill then jitb in this situation, it offers much more. Especially since the other team will more than likely clarity the area and see a jitb nest in the bushes if you manage to run over there quickly, not get ganked, and stack boxes for an extended period of time. Decieve lets you blink to finish off low hp runners, get out of an imminent death situation, and delivers a big damage boost with the guaranteed crit and bonus damage. Also in regards to runes, since you are not AD damage i would completely skip the crit damage and just add more ap/magic pen since your are not going to be adding any +dmg items during the match.

So besides my initial problem (which i am now attributing to a bad day or two for him) I just dont see how you can say AP is SUPERIOR to AD when the best shaco players usually run ad (And those other points I brought up). I could be wrong though, but thats just what stands out to me.
See what you said there, in your own words, how can i say ap is better when the best shaco players run ad, the best shaco players use AP.
your playing against noobs, your not even in the top 500 elo and even if you were elo means nothing, my buddys that are major noobs are on the current top 200 elo list.
Your scenarios are saying that ad doesn't need golem buff, and ap is useless vs dragon.
Dragon isn't a need, but I do normaly have a teamates with clary, and our mid+bot go gank at the time they take dragon while top is gaining levels.

To be honest, at this point your just severly ignorant, and whats worse is your not a skilled shaco, so your opinion means nothing. just another noob rambling on bout how he knows absolutely everything.
Now please leave my guide, all you've done is cause trouble and spread lies, you've made your point, suck it up and drop it.


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PrawnWonton

Senior Member

12-23-2009

AP Shaco. I must say I'm in the same boat with several posters in here questioning the validity of said build.

So, I can do a lot of Shiv damage. Woot. And Jack in the Boxes. And a Hallucinate bomb every few minutes. Is that it? I must be missing something.

Maybe because I've never seen any AP Shaco do anything useful other than killsteal. I've tried AP Shaco, and I find myself next to useless in fights, or even ganking for that matter.

I throw a shiv for lots of damage. Then.... I get to sit around and hope they don't go anywhere while my shiv is on cooldown. Using 3-5 Jack in the Boxes for a team fight is simply nigh unto impossible. "Excuse me, other team, could you just kinda hang out for 3 minutes while I plant my boxes? KTHKX." Simply not going to happen unless you already have them set up and they bumble into them.

And Hallucinate. Yes it does a lot of damage. But not enough to kill anyone unless they are at low health and are stupid enough to melee it. Every game I play, everyone on both sides can instantly spot the clone a mile away. But even if they are pub noobs, again it has a long cooldown.

With Lichbane at least every little bit you can melee for decent damage. I must be missing something.

This guide and subsequent posts boil down to: shiv, they run into jack in the box, shiv again, they die. Umm... yeah, how do you get 2 shivs during the course of a gank attempt? By the time your cooldown is up they are across the map. And a 1 second fear isn't going to stop them running away, I got news. Not when your shiv is thrown and you can't slow them anymore, while tickling them with autoattacks.

Toggle's responses have been in the range of, "well, if you were skilled like me you wouldn't have a problem." Yeah, uh, could you be a bit more specific?

I dunno, I find AD Shaco much more of a threat. He can kill squishies before they can react. In teamfights he removes the opposing DPSers out of the equation, allowing your team to melt faces. He mows down turrets like wet tissue paper, pushes lanes relatively easily, and ganks at will and on the move. Standing around for a couple minutes planting a Jack in the Box nest and praying some noob is dumb enough to walk right into them is time that could be spent getting gold, xp, and kills.

Please show me how wrong I am. Please someone show me how AP Shaco melts more faces than AD Shaco. I want to believe, I really do. I love the idea, but reality is a harsh mistress.

edit: Oh and the fact that Toggle said he ONLY plays AP Shaco on a premade team with friends makes me question it further. Any build can be good on a well coordinated team. And, any build that requires the golem buff is pretty sketchy in my book. You can never 100% guarantee you will get it every time. Maybe a teammate needs it more and gets it. Maybe enemy Yi yoinks it. My point is that Golem buff should be icing on the cake, not an integral part of any build. Just a pet peeve with me. So many 'builds' when asked about mana or cooldown or whatever just pull out the golem card. It isn't guaranteed.


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T0ggle

Member

12-23-2009

@PrawnWonton
First off I would just like to say you have never been able to master using ap shaco if you can't get your own kills or put out in a teamfight without killstealing. This obviously shows that you'd rather easy mode AD shaco because AP is to tough for you.

1.Last I checked decieve has a CD just as Shiv does, and if your going AP you can use your decieve to tele to safe spots, or run away were as AD decieve into the enemys gank get nuked. And jack in the boxes don't even last 3 minutes, so with the golem buff it should be around 12seconds or less each, wich is easy enough to say 30seconds 3 boxes in a good area, move on to your next, your team baits them to it or uses it as a retreat.
2.Hallucinate does massive damage, enough to take half or more of an average tanks HP and definitly by far enough to put a squishy down to 25% or less hp, most commonly enough for you to just ignite finish. Everytime you play they spot your clone because you can't use it right, your obviously not using it right otherwise youd bomb at least 1 person everytime you cast hallucinate. Wich once again proves that you aren't using this build right, do any of you listen? this build is for PROS, pros that want to do more damage then AD. Pros that want a challenge, not easy mode decieve auto attack.
3.I never get lichbane, many would look down upon me for this but I can get many more AP from zhonyas ring and abyssal scepter makes sure my hits go straight to their HP or put them in the negative magic resist to take increased magic damage.
4.The whole jackinthebox, shiv, get feared and shiv again works perfectly IF you are pro enough to know were the enemys going to run back so that they are garunteed running into a fear, and by the time they get feared my CD is normaly either done with or 1second away wich is still enough range to nuke them even with flash! Wich for the 3rd time I believe, I have said this before, This guide is for pros, not noobs that can't pull off a simple doubleshiv fear!
5.AD shaco is no threat, after you decieve into the enemy you could get set up into being anti ganked fast, people with armor and hp would just shrug off the crit you just did exhaust and nuke you, do you not knotice this? no, its because you face off noobs.
6.AP shaco is good in pubs aswell, but the reason I said I don't do shaco in pubs anymore is because I tend to get idiots 3/4ths of the time, and if more then half my team is stupid, its not going to matter wether or not I can get kills. I play shaco so much that it tends to get boring, and by boring I mean boring that I die over Fed enemys because as I said before I have idiots on my team. Today I'd have a perfect example of what I mean if I had video recording running, my team were complete idiots leaving me 2v1 in a lane, getting ganked and feeding, and our malphite was *****ing at me yet got nothing but ****py magic resist items like chalice and fed worst then anyone on the team.

So for the last time, I would ask you all to please only post something that actualy has a good point, everything you say about ap shaco just constantly shows how much of an unskilled player you are.


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PrawnWonton

Senior Member

12-23-2009

Toggle: Thanks for taking the time to respond, even in a condescending manner.

Again, your advice boils down to: "If you aren't PRO like ME, you must be a noob, therefore, you suck, therefore, you will never be able to use AP Shaco. Ever." That attitude rather defeats the purpose of a 'guide', but maybe that is just me...

Any specifics would be fantastic. Take the simple double-shiv thing as a most minor example:

You shiv a target, let's assume it takes ~half their health (being really generous there). They are slowed a bit for 4 seconds. Shiv's cooldown is what, 13 seconds? So the chase is on. They be runnin for a few seconds, and run into your Jack in the Box, get feared for 1 second. Your Shiv is still on cooldown, as only 5-6 seconds AT MOST have passed. So they are running away with half health, Shiv on cooldown, you can't slow them anymore, what do you do? Deceive and autoattack for piddly damage, and unable to slow them? By this time, they are way safe behind a tower, and your Shiv is STILL on cooldown for another few seconds at least.

IF they are total idiots, they will stand around within Shiv range and when your cooldown is FINALLY up, you throw your Shiv, whilst praying that their HP regen over those 13 seconds hasn't been enough to save them.
My question: How often does this actually happen? I know there are many noobs out there, but ****, that is pushing it a bit far.

So, on to specifics, please: How much distance do you need to pull off one of these ganks? My estimation is a long **** way, as you need to chase them for 13 seconds. Which is nearly long enough to go halfway across the map.

For the record, I have absolutely zero problem planting a Jack in the Box in their retreat path. I do it all the time with AD Shaco, and Teemo for that matter. So I guess, in your words, I am "...pro enough to know were the enemys going to run back so that they are garunteed running into a fear..." Fear is not the issue. The issue is the massive cooldown on Shiv, since it is your only source of damage in this example.

We'll start simple. I don't even want to get into the whole get-the-other-team-to-****-around-for-45-seconds-while-you-place-JitBs. Or your insulting me over Hallucinate being easy to spot, since anyone that has played more than 10 games is able to spot the clone easily (just ping the stupid thing. or 1 autoattack gives it away to EVERYONE. Not difficult. I figured a self-styled "PRO" would be able to tell the difference).

So, any help with specifics would be greatly appreciated. But if all you are going to do is say how "PRO" you are, and how "noob" anyone is that asks legitimate questions about the GUIDE that you wrote, don't bother.


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inept

Member

12-23-2009

I dont know why you guys bother discussing with this toggle guy. most condescending ***** ive ever seen. cherry on top is that AP shaco is ****ing terrible.

good day to you all and this ****ty thread.