A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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Abraham Luncheon

Senior Member

08-27-2013

I think a nice ferocity bonus for Rengar's ult would be to consume his ferocity temporarily, then give it back to him after the ult ends. It could be like a ferocity bank. (Perhaps if he doesn't use "stalk?") So he charges his ferocity back up during the hunt, uses it, then the hunt ends, he gets his deposited five ferocity back, and he uses it again. This kind of keeps with the theme of the hunt vs stalk; instead of sneaking around, he just goes absolutely ****ing mad on one person and tears them limb from limb. I'm not sure what you would do with the stealth portion if he does this, perhaps allow it to retain some movement speed, or be activated with little/no/uninterrupted fade time?

Another option could be to just give him ferocity generation during his ult if he acitvates it with five ferocity, but I like the ferocity bank idea.

Thanks for taking the time to read our feedback Scarizard.

Don't touch his passive.


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Atyres

Senior Member

08-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
I've seen this a bunch in this thread so far, but i don't see it as having the same problems due to

- Stalk having less Stealth Duration than on Live
- Stalk losing Thrill of the Hunt's movement speed
- Rengar's overall burst being lowered

In general, there's a much lower window for Rengar to Sneak-Attack you. He can also just run and leap on you if his goal is to just get to you, but if taking your opponent by surprise is important (say, in a lane-gank) that option is still available and potent. Overall it takes a lot more planning and execution to pull off the stealth-attack, but you can forgo the planning and just bumrush them (at the cost of alerting them to your presence earlier)
soooo you're still just gonna nerf him...yay...

Most people didn't want a low burst more sustain hunter, we wanted to pounce and take our target out. Not have to hope that we can survive the fight and maybe kill someone.


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ImpurePug

Junior Member

08-27-2013

Ummm, im actually a bit late on this one but i have a few ideas for his empowered abilities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Hey dudes, sorry for going mostly silent this week - had a lot to get done and i don't like to post when i know i won't have time to follow up with y'all (this is why last week's post came on a Friday evening so i had all weekend to keep talking)

So i'm likely going to format this horrendously because i'm at home and don't have a screencap of the tooltip, but here's the new idea for Rengar's ultimate:

Thrill of the Hunt

Hunt: Rengar activates his Predatory instincts, gaining % movement speed and vision of all nearby enemy champions. During this time, Rengar also generates up to 5 Ferocity and his first basic attack will cause him to leap. Lasts (Long Duration) or until Rengar uses an ability/leaps.

After a few seconds, Rengar may choose to reactivate Thrill of the Hunt to enter Stalk.

Stalk: Rengar loses all bonus movement speed from Thrill of the Hunt, but enters Stealth. Lasts (Shorter Duration) or until Rengar takes offensive action.

If i can clarify more, let me know. The basics are that Rengar players get to choose which is best for the situation - to Speedcat for a chase or cleanup? or Stealthcat for an ambush or otherwise awesome juke? I'm excited about this version because it has a lot of flexibility in what Rengar can do throughout the game (by retaining Higher % MS than is on live via Hunt, but retaining the Stealth Ambush in Stalk) but doesn't let you just hit R and run without being smart about it.

Bonus Question!- Consuming Ferocity on cast is still something i want to do, but i'd want to find a better bonus you get for 'Empowering' your Ultimate rather than duration. Suggestions? I anticipate a lot of '+Damage and +Stealth' time, but i'm open to hearing what you guys have to say.

Let me know what you guys think, and sorry for the delay!
Idea 1)Longer Duration
This longer duration would be focused more towards Stalk, rather than hunt.

2)More MS
Here, it would be a small boost, scaling off level (of the skill) and the amount of ferocity.
So it could be something like:
Rank 1: 5%/6%/7%/8%/10%
Rank 2: 7%/8%/9%/10%/12%
Rank 3: 10%/12%/13%/14%/15%

3)Leap Mark
This is a more complicated (and powerful) 5 ferocity boost. Any leap out of Hunt, or Stalk
will have an effect on the target:

3A)Extra Effects
When Rengar casts a spell on the target he leaped on, his skills have extra effects

Savagery: Leaves a trail of blood behind(think Talon's Q), but does not deal DOT.
Battle Roar:I actually cant think of any offensive things Battle Roar can do, HELP ME!
Bola Strike : Slow for a bit longer (0.5-1 sec maybe?)

3B)TONS OF DAMAGE
When you leap, any attacks will deal 110%/115%/120% more damage to the target for a certain amount of time.


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StarTomb

Junior Member

08-27-2013

I was thinking that a simple use for the ferocity on Rengar's ult would be to allow him to cast Stalk for a short time after Hunt has ended (Rengar leaps to target, hunt times out, etc.) Maybe something as simple as Rengar may cast Stalk up to +x seconds for each ferocity after Hunt has ended. This would make him a bit more slippery if trying to escape multiple enemies, and also allow him to have a bit more play to his ult once he has caught his target.


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Chamaquillo

Senior Member

08-27-2013

My Two Cents:

I really like that Hunt is stealthless and Stalk has no MS+. In my opinion, this allows you to give Rengar more power overall bc having Stealth+MS was requiring so much of his power budget, now you can balance him better.

I agree that you don't want to cause the Empowered R to be of the sort that you feel "I didn't use with all 5 points, what a waste." Duration seems like a fine bonus, as does length of the leap. Another idea might be: the more points you consume, the faster your ferocity is re-generated during Hunt... So if you ult with 5, you actually get to max ferocity sooner than if you had ulted with no ferocity?

Thanks for your work on Rengar. I'm looking forward to maining him again. Please don't get discouraged by haters. Haters gonna hate, and what you're doing with Rengar does NOT deserve any hates. You rock Scarizard.

Chama out.


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Launchpad

Member

08-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norr1N View Post
Completely different ultimate idea from the existing. Nothing to do with stealth. Put away the pitchforks. More jungle-oriented with a focus on brush and jungle control, Rengar's specialty.

R - Jungle Presence

Cooldown - 150/120/90 seconds
Monster Vision Radius - 750/1100/1450


Passive
Reveals all neutral monsters within a short range. Does not reveal champions.
Active
Lookout

Rengar can activate this ability to reveal all brushes on the map (and any immediate nearby surrounding enemy units or monsters) for 8 seconds. During these 8 seconds, if Rengar is within brush, Rengar can reactivate this ability to cast Invade.

Invade

Rengar instantly becomes invulnerable for 2 seconds as he leaps deep into the bushes. After this short duration, Rengar emerges from any other brush on the map. A loud roar is heard from the destination brush the moment before his arrival. Enemies within the brush, or if enemies have vision of brush, also see a flash of glowing blue/orange eyes for half a second during the roar.
Attacking from brush reduces the cooldown of this ability by 1 second.

=============================

Ability will synergise with the new suggested BTN changes, which emphasise MS bonuses when entering/exiting brush, as well as his passive. Cooldown is lower than TF's as it is brush-specific, and not exactly global in the truest sense of the word.

Although simple, can be very versatile, enabling a number of plays e.g. -
- Better ganks on side lanes, not relying on movement speed alone to close gap
- More reliable like a Nocturne ult
- Better objective control, can be used to steal enemy buffs (instead of using it to gank a lane)
- Can be used to check brushes and get back to lane quicker if laning top
- Used to engage or escape (have to choose which wisely)
- If used with proper timing, can find a target singled out from the rest of the herd and pick them off
- Dodge a Karth ult
- Used to chase, and cut off fleeing enemies
- Passive reveals monster camps, enabling smoother jungle navigation with leaps
- Passive can also show nearby camps under attack by enemies
- Etc.
YA... this may be a bit overpowered in my opinion. The ability to "teleport" to any bush! I like the thought on the neutral monster vision but ya... global teleport is too op I think .


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Launchpad

Member

08-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CesarAtteh View Post
I like Norr1N's idea so much
"Reveals all neutral monsters within a short range. Does not reveal champions."
but how about it for a bonetooth nec stat

YES YES YES BTN stack this is a great idea I think.


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Launchpad

Member

08-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RadiantWings View Post
Have you guys ever considered a non-snowball version of Bonetooth Necklace? What I mean is, what if the trophy collection was sort of a gating mechanism that will allow Rengar to purchase effects with gold? That way you could actually go wild with the Bonetooth Necklace abilities since now he'd be exchanging power for utility.

Bonetooth Necklace suffers right now because Rengar *has* to be balanced around it existing, and the item itself *has* to be somewhat low impact because it's both a personal AND a snowball item. Because of this you end up having games where you've farmed a maxed out Bonetooth Necklace... and then you sell it because that extra Bloodthirster is more important than any utility BN provides. What if Bonetooth was something more inherent to Rengar?

Something like:

-Rengar innately collects trophies for his Bonetooth Necklace. Every 3 trophies Rengar has collected allows him to buy a utility effect.

When you assign an individual gold cost to each effect, every effect from the Necklace can then be balanced accordingly to eachother. It also opens up a wealth of actual customization for Rengar, allowing you to actually tailor the way you play him in a way that's different from Kha'zix or Viktor's gameplay.

Example effects:
-While Rengar has Unseen predator active, he reveals the area within his sightrange (allowing him to see into brush and over cliffs.)

-If Rengar activates Savagery within .5 seconds of using Unseen predator, he briefly gains Unseen Predator again. (Yes it's doublejump. While Alistar can Headbutt->Pulverize and Lee Sin/Jax/Katarina jumping to wards is "skillful play" doublejump was labeled an abuse case. This change makes it *not* an abuse case since it's a clearly worded effect)

These effects would be downright amazing and would allow vast customization with how you play Rengar. The first effect would allow him to jump certain monster camps while the second gives you creative jumping patterns and gank paths. Far more than having two effects devoted solely to making Rengar run faster in the brush. Also, it's worded "When Rengar has Unseen Predator" in order to allow the effects to work with Thrill of the Hunt as well as the brush, since Rengar will always have Unseen Predator in the brush.

A pick and choose situation wouldn't work for his current iteration of Bonetooth because he can lose stacks, and because you'd have to have a different version of BN for every single combination of abilities, hence, the Eleisa's Miracle solution.


Clarity Edit: Rengar would still collect trophies as usual. When he reaches a multiple of 3 he can activate one effect at a gold cost.
PLEASE make this come true Scarizard. It would do away with the feast or famine of the BTN and it allows rengar players to choose which tools they want/need to hunt down their prey. And actually the more I think about it it doesn't really make sense that a hunter who has "learned" new hunting tactics would forget them (losing stacks)


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Launchpad

Member

08-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troy242621 View Post
Not sure how it'd balance out, but if Rengar BOUGHT his trophies, I seriously doubt that he would still consider them trophies. He'd probably consider them trinkets.
He still has to earn them through kills. It's just that with the ability to purchase them... it's more like locking in a desired ability for the price of gold. It'd be a trophy that no one can take away from him that he specifically chose, rather than one that was predestined for him to receive and could be taken away.


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Launchpad

Member

08-27-2013

Idea with the Hunt/Stalk mechanic.

I personally like the thought of Rengar being a true lion. That being said observe the way a lion hunts as portrayed by one of our childhood favorites.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIIBrbMfFhc

This is how it works in my mind:

HUNT/STALK: Upon activaiting HUNT/STALK Rengar gains true vision of enemy units within x radius, gains up to 5 ferocity and his passive "Unseen Predator" is enabled" Additionally when outside of brush Rengar gains x% movement speed. While in brush Rengar loses his %MS bonus but gains stealth. The ability as a whole would last x seconds unless an aggressive action is taken by Rengar.

I believe this would go well with the idea that people were wanting to be able to switch back and forth between HUNT and STALK. It would allow for interesting ganks from either top lane or the jungle, or even to the other jungle! It also adds a level of skill to the champion that you must always be aware of what environment you're in, and how to best use it to your advantage.

In closing much like Simba shown in the video above (which if you haven't watched you should definitely go and click on that link, it shows exactly what I'm talking about) Rengar would be a true lion able to both stalk his prey, and if need be chase down his prey if they are running from him.

EDIT: When first exiting the brush Rengar retains his stealth for x seconds (to allow for brush transferring while stealth something like 1 second)