I got Plat II playing almost exclusively Swain

First Riot Post
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Scarizard

Live Balance Designer

08-25-2013
2 of 3 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koi Sashimi View Post
"We generally attribute this to his 3 DoT spells and the one delayed skillshot"
Uh sir, i'd just like to say, as someone who loves swain, i love his dots, and i love his delayed skill shot.

WHat i do not love however, is that you can't get at the enemy back line ever, and in teamfights, that makes you a liability unless your team has CC to help you bet back here.
Not saying these things are bad - they're part of Swain and it's no wonder you love them. It's just big bursts of damage, or immediate effects are generally valued more amongst players. Slow burning someone's HP away with Swain before they know what's happened is fun, it's just also really hard to appreciate for people who aren't intimate with the champion.

Just saying we try to limit the amount of deferred rewards we give unless there's going to be a big payoff - in Swain's case, Warlock-esque Dot-Mage is his identity, so that's why he has so many.


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Demagoguery

Senior Member

08-25-2013

I love the DoT aspect of him, but there are two things I hate about Swain:

1.) His inability to farm creeps being an AA dependent champion, with an AA speed the same as Karthus, who has an attack rate the speed of molasses. He does have like +6 initial damage on Karthus, but it's still painful, and Karthus just kind of farms with his Q as the AA is painfully slow.

2.) The passive just isn't good. At level 2 Karthus picks up his E and gets 20 mana a kill as long as the Aura isn't on. That's the same mana that Swain gets a kill at level 11 from his passive. Not only that but the passive because almost non-existent when you get to late game and you're in a team fight, like the best that can happen is you get +25 mana for killing a champion? That's just terrible.

The concept is cool, but it's nowhere near the level of Trundle's passive, or Karthus's E passive. Maybe keep the mana regen on kill, but give it a little something because it's just not strong at all. Especially when you have such a hard time farming due to your reliance on AA and short range.

Edit:

3.) This isn't so much an issue because Swain is more of a lane bully than the normal mid but if you look at the most common mids people prefer the boil down into the following:

High roaming/mobility champions: Ahri, Kass, TF, Zed, and even Karthus all have some ability to impact other lanes from mid by either having super mobility or ults that let them simply impact other lanes from being around mid.

High utility champs:This is mostly Orianna, she has a really high skill cap but once going she has so much utility with a shield, speed/slow, and an ult that just destroys team fights. Sure, Swain can pile drive fights and can have the ability to snare a group of people, but he doesn't have the utility of Kayler or Orianna.

Edit 2:

What if instead of just regenerating mana off of his passive, he gains it for killing a unit? As in his passive is like that of Nasus's Q, Veiger's Q, or Sion's E? That way it still has a similar function to its original form, by acting as a sort of mana regen method, but it lets him build up some more mana without having to invest so much gold into it.

You'd have to reduce the amount he gains, but it would really make his life better, and allow him to have a higher mana pool over time.


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KAOChosen

Senior Member

08-25-2013

A QoL buff id like to see on swain is a little icon on the bar that shows how much his next tick of ult will cost. You can quickly loss track of time while ulting and be wasting 100 a sec.


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ArbiterOfTruth

Senior Member

08-25-2013

I thought the reason people didn't want to play him was because of ignite. This causes his ult to not heal as much and then since he is weaker can be taken out easier. I love playing Swain and I love the DoTs and his snare. I just feel as if the amount of easily accessible healing reduction is the main cause for him to be unpopular.


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ExaltedVanguard

Senior Member

08-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
2. Without buffing Swain (you can err on this a little), do you have any suggestions to make the lives of Swain players easier (QoL) or simply more fun? (PSA: We consider QoL typically as changes that smooth out a champion that aren't power-level focused - adding ratios, ranges, etc don't count typically)
I don't have anything for Swain specifically, but I do have a series of QoL fixes for a few various champions which should be addressed.

1) Allow activation of Shyvana's Q and W mid-leap during her ult. If you don't activate them prior to leaping, there's an awkward pause after landing when you're trying to get them to come up.

2) I saw a minion attacking Jarvan's standard yesterday.

3) Vayne's tumble is inconsistent in the way it funtions. After tumbling without ult, she will continue to attack her previous target. With ult active, she will stop attacking to preserve the stealth. I can see the values of having it this way, but also feel that consistency (one way or the other) in this regard may be more valuable.

4) Syndra's W is incredibly inconsistent. Travel time is variable depending on where she's holding the unit. Can be anything from near-instant to a good 0.5s delay.

4a) This is potentially a buff for Syndra, but her W is really awkward in general. When you push a sphere with your E, you can grab it before it travels the full distance. If it does travel the full distance, it's out of range for you to grab. I suggest that the skill so that orbs grabbed mid-push still travel the full distance, and that grabbing an orb (not a minion of course) has unlimited range (it will still default to closest one, of course).

5) Master Yi disappears from the mini-map when he Q's, when most other champions remain on the map when they go untargetable.

6) Going untargetable pops projectiles but does not break leashes. This seems like another strange inconsistency, and the difference isn't communicated very well in-game. You pretty much learn this when you die because you didn't know it.

7) I'm fairly sure Pantheon's Heartseeker strike is the only skill in the game which has a tooltip that lists damage dealt to minions and says, "double damage to champions." This is contrast to listing damage dealt to champions and saying half damage to minions.

8) I'd love to see an option to make tool tips list combined damge values such as 93 instead of "70+23"

9) The tooltip for Teemo's mushrooms doesn't state that it reveals the target for the duration of the damage.

10) Player-created terrain still doesn't interact with terrain-related abilities. Also, I know Trundle's pillar interrupts channels. Does Anivia wall? I don't remember if she was changed as well.

11) Why does Kassadin's W not have a particle effect? A few other skills I feel would greatly benefit players by having particle effects (when they're availible): Anivia Passive, Blitzcrank Passive, Volibear Passive, ZAC Passive.

12) Shaco clone always spawns in same spot relative to Shaco. Particle effects. Items. Etc. This "deception" skill isn't very deceiving.

13) The amount of game-knowledge Cleanse requires is staggering. It will remove ignite's DoT, but not darius's bleed. It will remove the attack speed slow from ice-ball, but not the attack speed slow from gragas barrels. It would be a straight-up buff, but the spell would be a lot more usable if it simply removed ALL negative effects (except maybe suppress?) ala quick silver sash.

14) Shyvana Q does bonus damage to turrets, but not inhibitors. Odd. I can't remember if she gains fury off inhibs, either. She also doesn't gain fury while dead - meaning she has the only ultimate in the game that doesn't "cool down" in some way while dead.

15) Skills like Rivens Q or Nidalee's jump should have some sort of option to smartcast toward the cursor instead. Current functionality should be preserved for those used to it. An option like this is never a bad thing.

16) When running away on Syndra, casting behind you at near-max range with moderate ping will often result in you turning around because you're now out of range (due to connection latency and game delays). I'd imagine this also applies to Orianna (though often less deadly due to her higher range). I'm not sure if there's much you can do to fix this, but it's definitely an issue.


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Lemme play mid

Member

08-25-2013

I will play swain when dragon master swain comes out


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Prince of Memes

Senior Member

08-25-2013

Personally, I play Swain for those great moments in teamfights where you can dance around a teamfight, constantly soaking and dealing damage, and sustain your way through multiple assaults. Obviously this is rarely achievable on the level I want it to be given how healing reduction affects his ult, but that is the part of the champion I enjoy.

I'd agree that he's difficult to itemize for simply because of how many stats he requires. A short range, necessarily tanky mage that requires huge amounts of mana to sustain is already difficult enough, but his setup and identity as a nonstandard mage also reduce his AP options. Perhaps if he was able to build tankier by relying less on AP? I guess that's a pretty scary direction.


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Dandark6

Senior Member

08-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by KAOChosen View Post
A QoL buff id like to see on swain is a little icon on the bar that shows how much his next tick of ult will cost. You can quickly loss track of time while ulting and be wasting 100 a sec.
^^ This would be great. I usaully find it easy to lose track of how long I have ulted and im not sure how much it costs all the time so a small icon to let you know how many ticks it's on would be great.


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Triboon

Senior Member

08-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Swain is a pretty powerful champion under the right circumstances, but is typically seen as unpopular. We generally attribute this to his 3 DoT spells and the one delayed skillshot, as deferred reward in our game are appreciated/valued less unless their power is pretty massive (think Death Mark)). That said, a few questions for you sir:

1. Do you feel like you don't have -enough- items to build? Which stats are most important to you as a Swain player? I've always felt like i needed Mana, Mana regen, Health, AP, CDR, Pen, and then Resists - and have often found it difficult to itemize overall.

2. Without buffing Swain (you can err on this a little), do you have any suggestions to make the lives of Swain players easier (QoL) or simply more fun? (PSA: We consider QoL typically as changes that smooth out a champion that aren't power-level focused - adding ratios, ranges, etc don't count typically)

3. What do you feel like is Swain's 'fantasy' as a game goes on - what do you feel defines him? Champions like Ezreal and Vayne want to dart around a fight dealing damage and kiting, Mages like Syndra and Veigar want to set up and then crush their opponent in one blow - what do you think is your 'I am Epic' moment for Swain?

3a. If you do have an endgame fantasy that you think fits Swain, do you think it's working out atm? Are there things you think we could do to improve on it?

(This isn't a precursor to a 'Let's Talk' thread or a Swain rework, just up late watching Gamescom and sincerely interested in what you'd answer as a Swain player.)

Let me know what you think.
What about a range indicator when he goes into his ulti! It would be nice to see like a indicator circle like on Orianna when she uses her E on someone. Just something that is subtle, but shows the range of the lesser ravens!


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THEJJSLAY

Senior Member

08-25-2013

I think the only thing that I personally would like to see is maybe his passive buffed a TINY bit.