I got Plat II playing almost exclusively Swain

First Riot Post
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Dues Pater

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Senior Member

08-25-2013

All i ask for is small buff to his base ad for he can last hit better


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teh d wreck

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Senior Member

08-25-2013

Fubby, why you bump the thread but not reply to the Red? -_- lol (Most people would kill a Teemo to get Riot's attention!)


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peripeteia

Senior Member

08-25-2013

fubby mad scarizard hijacked thread

but srs why u no respond


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Government1

Senior Member

08-25-2013

Looking forward to trying Swain, but he's 4800 IP -__-


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Rewenger

Senior Member

08-25-2013

Quote:
I've always felt like i needed Mana, Mana regen, Health, AP, CDR, Pen, and then Resists - and have often found it difficult to itemize overall.
Quality of life buff: make some change that will naturally give him one of these stats, taking away some power in other places. So he will be easier to itemise.


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Ras Doomreaver

Junior Member

08-25-2013

As a Swain player my most gratifying moments are A. luring in an opposing mid for a perfect snare and murdering them (fav trick is getting Lux to try to proc passive) and B. turning into a giant bird monster and outlasting entire enemy team with my delayed damage and self healing. The fantasy he fulfills for me is a duel one of a master strategist who uses his spells in cunning ways to out damage his opponent (e then q for more damage, baiting in opponents while at low hp for a snare etc.) but also a giant monster who can throw strategy out the window and eat his opponents (ult tanking entire enemy team after a good laning phase).

Basically his /joke sums it all up for me: "If we approach strategically from the flank... oh who am I kidding? Lets just morph and eat them!"


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Xyltin

Senior Member

08-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Swain is a pretty powerful champion under the right circumstances, but is typically seen as unpopular. We generally attribute this to his 3 DoT spells and the one delayed skillshot, as deferred reward in our game are appreciated/valued less unless their power is pretty massive (think Death Mark)). That said, a few questions for you sir:

1. Do you feel like you don't have -enough- items to build? Which stats are most important to you as a Swain player? I've always felt like i needed Mana, Mana regen, Health, AP, CDR, Pen, and then Resists - and have often found it difficult to itemize overall.

2. Without buffing Swain (you can err on this a little), do you have any suggestions to make the lives of Swain players easier (QoL) or simply more fun? (PSA: We consider QoL typically as changes that smooth out a champion that aren't power-level focused - adding ratios, ranges, etc don't count typically)

3. What do you feel like is Swain's 'fantasy' as a game goes on - what do you feel defines him? Champions like Ezreal and Vayne want to dart around a fight dealing damage and kiting, Mages like Syndra and Veigar want to set up and then crush their opponent in one blow - what do you think is your 'I am Epic' moment for Swain?

3a. If you do have an endgame fantasy that you think fits Swain, do you think it's working out atm? Are there things you think we could do to improve on it?

(This isn't a precursor to a 'Let's Talk' thread or a Swain rework, just up late watching Gamescom and sincerely interested in what you'd answer as a Swain player.)

Let me know what you think.
Swains biggest problem are creeps.

He can't push lanes well without using tons of mana. A maxed W + R is decent (R doesn't do much agaisnt minons), but costs a lot of mana and forces you to max W second and you still have no wave clear early game. At the same time your AD is not really great, your base AS is actually bad, the animation is still one of the worst (I think only WW and Anivia are worse).

=> Nearly all CS and wave clear has to come from AA and W and both are not the things that are too great or used early on.

Then healing reductions. It would be way better to reduce the sustain through his ult a bit more and instead give him some other extra tools in it.

And if his E is on CD, his dmg is pretty low overall. 10 sec CD, a long time for an AP champ. And in that 10 sec you also can't swap targets cause your dmg is not high enough.


Swains biggest strength is that enemies don't know him too well currently. His early game burst is great when you manage to land all skills, and from there on you can snowball.
But if an enemy knows that his Q has a short leash and his E has a long CD, they can force pretty great trades for themself.


I would suggest reducing his E bonus dmg a bit (4/6/8/10/12 %) and putting some of that dmg into his AD and other skills.

Another big problem is his mana reg. He has a passive only for that, but he still wants to get max mana or mana reg. He eats mana nearly like Anivia, but his skills don't have the CC, rang dmg of Anivias skills (but they need less skill except for his W).
Q and W are a bit expensive at higher lvls, but the main problem is his ult.
You need 130 mana for 200 base dmg. Most ults around that time (AOe and multi target) deal around 200-250 dmg and cost 130 only.
I don't say the dmg is too low (it is without the E xD), but his mana costs don't work. It is a system that works completely against him and his passive doesn't help as much, especially cause he is a champ that has a hard time taking CS. It is not more than 6-10 mana every 5 sec while laning and completely useless in team fights. Veigars passive is way better than this and more reliable. But overall i would say that mana reg passives are not great. Cassiopeias is probably the best implementation of a mana preserving passive.


1. QoL changes: AA animation, AA range, AD/AS changes early game, Q leash range.
2. Real changes:
- E % dmg down and moved into his skills and AD
- mana management and passive changes (mainly ult only 3/4/5 more mana per sec)
- The E % bonus dmg gets always applied to minions and monsters (passive on his E)


Counterplays are still possible cause of his low overall range (Q and E) and though ignite, other healing reudctions or hugh burst.But if needed, his R healing could get reduced or limited just like Renektons or at 150% (2 champs getting hit).


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Willump and

Senior Member

08-25-2013

"We generally attribute this to his 3 DoT spells and the one delayed skillshot"
Uh sir, i'd just like to say, as someone who loves swain, i love his dots, and i love his delayed skill shot.

WHat i do not love however, is that you can't get at the enemy back line ever, and in teamfights, that makes you a liability unless your team has CC to help you bet back here.


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Failbot Deploy

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Senior Member

08-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Cookie View Post
Hey, I'm a Swain player and I'll answer your questions:

2. When casting W outside of the range, Swain has to walk up and THEN he casts it. I think that a QoL buff would to be that if Swain casts his W outside of the range, he'll cast it at max range. Another thing is this: It's difficult to see the range of your ultimate damage radius, so maybe when Swain goes in bird form, there is a red line that shows the range of your ravens? It would seem so much cooler and awesomer!

3. I think the fantasy is dealing out lots of DoT damage in one combo as well as sticking in the middle of a team and healing up everything.
I like playing him, but I'm not a main Swain guy. I definitely agree that being in the middle of the team and dodging what they throw at you while being essentially the bait feels like an interesting twist on a tactician.

I disagree on 2. I always cast Nevermove knowing I'm outside of range and wouldn't like that change from a smartcast perspective.


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Still Eternity

Senior Member

08-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Swain is a pretty powerful champion under the right circumstances, but is typically seen as unpopular. We generally attribute this to his 3 DoT spells and the one delayed skillshot, as deferred reward in our game are appreciated/valued less unless their power is pretty massive (think Death Mark)). That said, a few questions for you sir:

1. Do you feel like you don't have -enough- items to build? Which stats are most important to you as a Swain player? I've always felt like i needed Mana, Mana regen, Health, AP, CDR, Pen, and then Resists - and have often found it difficult to itemize overall.

2. Without buffing Swain (you can err on this a little), do you have any suggestions to make the lives of Swain players easier (QoL) or simply more fun? (PSA: We consider QoL typically as changes that smooth out a champion that aren't power-level focused - adding ratios, ranges, etc don't count typically)

3. What do you feel like is Swain's 'fantasy' as a game goes on - what do you feel defines him? Champions like Ezreal and Vayne want to dart around a fight dealing damage and kiting, Mages like Syndra and Veigar want to set up and then crush their opponent in one blow - what do you think is your 'I am Epic' moment for Swain?

3a. If you do have an endgame fantasy that you think fits Swain, do you think it's working out atm? Are there things you think we could do to improve on it?

(This isn't a precursor to a 'Let's Talk' thread or a Swain rework, just up late watching Gamescom and sincerely interested in what you'd answer as a Swain player.)

Let me know what you think.
Scar, this is coming from a LONG time Swain player and enthusiast. I may not have gotten to a respectable rank, but I've been a Swain player since he even came out. Yeah, started League on the Swain patch. I've played him literally from the humblest beginnings to my humble current status, but I've still put in my fair share of Swain games. So I'll tell you what I think.

1. Swain DOES require a lot of stats given the nature of the Champion. He needs mana to run his ult, but he needs resistances to not die to burst, but he also needs AP to actually deal damage. I find the most efficient way to actually build him is basically the one listed in OP's guide, but to tell the truth I find it frustrating that I have to go, "Oh, so after I have 3~ish items I'm actually hitting my stride" rather than some champions that only need to finish one item to get their ball rolling. It's rather annoying, as if you as the Swain player ever get behind, you're basically screwed, because you require so many different stats to function. Granted, it works great if you get ahead, because you're getting the gold to fund your massive stat costs, but hey, other champions work the same way.

2. You want the truth? Give him like 4 Base AD and smooth out his Auto Attack animation. Last hitting with Swain is utterly PAINFUL. He has very poor waveclear until 6, and even then it's not that great.

3. The "Epic" moment for Swain is when you turn on your ultimate and become a juggernaut that enemy quite simply cannot overcome. You are the Tyrant Bird, and those filthy mongrels cannot overcome your superior power. This should be the big moment for Swain. He sacrifices his mana in order to become a temporary immovable object that refuses to die to the enemy team.

This is generally fulfilled, but sadly the high prevalence of ignite and it's blasted healing reduction serves to easily neuter this fantasy. It's even sadder that there is no counterplay to healing reduction. I would LOVE to invest in an item that would reduce the percent of healing that healing reduction reduces, or something, especially considering healing is counter-able with just a click of your F or D key.

That's my two cents on Swain, Scarizard.