A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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Griiffy

Member

08-05-2013

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Troy242621

Senior Member

08-05-2013

I'd really like to know the direction you're taking. Is he a bruiser now? Is he still an assassin? What are you designing him to be? Please shine some light on this.


By the way, not to kiss a*s but eh, thanks for keeping us informed. Most companies would just keep us in the dark until it's released. Appreciate the information updates you give us.


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NA Darklarik

Senior Member

08-05-2013

@scarizard plz. update us


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Scarizard

Live Balance Designer

08-05-2013
46 of 81 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skhorne View Post
@Scarizard

Are you dead set on keeping rengar's core ultimate aspects such as turning invisible and revealing the enemy team?(Imo I think his ult should be scrapped for a new one)

I would like to also know what your definition of what a hunter is in your point of view, this may help us guide you to put rengar in a good place.
Interesting that you bring this up!

Part of the reason for Wav3 and i's radiosilence is that there isn't much to report at present. Other champions are taking testing bandwidth - and while we're definitely getting good iteration on the changes we have, it's not like Lucian, Yi, or other recently 'near-done' testpoints that need multiple balance tests. Generally for things like this it's 'Make change based on hypothesis -> test -> validate -> repeat' Validating what worked/didn't work with a particular iteration is the easy bit (Rengar without %AS on Q felt bad, Rengar with Q-train felt cool), but working on the next iteration to make sure it's still aligned with the changes but making progress can take time.

We're trying some crazy things. Namely, pretty much every human (even those who agree that Rengar stabbing with 0 warning is BS) has been to some degree opposed to the Icon/VO telegraph - and while it's definitely more fair playing against (and not near as detrimental as perceived), there's a lot of validity to the feeling of 'I want to be a hunter lion and this goes against my instinct that i will feel powerful'. It's only one solution out of a lot of them - I hear you guys on this one, and so we're trying alternate approaches to add the appropriate counterplay on the ultimate.

Larger update as soon as we have concrete stuff to show.


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FlatCap

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Senior Member

08-06-2013

An idea for his ultimate:
Remove the stealth entirely, up the move-speed steroid and have it have a set duration like yi ult, but instead of granting atk speed it gives passive resource generation.

Now, obviously this would require other kit changes, but its just an idea.


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Atyres

Senior Member

08-06-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Interesting that you bring this up!

Part of the reason for Wav3 and i's radiosilence is that there isn't much to report at present. Other champions are taking testing bandwidth - and while we're definitely getting good iteration on the changes we have, it's not like Lucian, Yi, or other recently 'near-done' testpoints that need multiple balance tests. Generally for things like this it's 'Make change based on hypothesis -> test -> validate -> repeat' Validating what worked/didn't work with a particular iteration is the easy bit (Rengar without %AS on Q felt bad, Rengar with Q-train felt cool), but working on the next iteration to make sure it's still aligned with the changes but making progress can take time.

We're trying some crazy things. Namely, pretty much every human (even those who agree that Rengar stabbing with 0 warning is BS) has been to some degree opposed to the Icon/VO telegraph - and while it's definitely more fair playing against (and not near as detrimental as perceived), there's a lot of validity to the feeling of 'I want to be a hunter lion and this goes against my instinct that i will feel powerful'. It's only one solution out of a lot of them - I hear you guys on this one, and so we're trying alternate approaches to add the appropriate counterplay on the ultimate.

Larger update as soon as we have concrete stuff to show.
But he counter play has, and always will be, pink wards =/


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Borand

Senior Member

08-06-2013

Mr Scarizard, you haven't said anything about this post:

"Hello Mr. Scarizard!
I've been a Rengar player for a while, I too could add to your conversation about Rengar.

First of all, there's a quite distinct pattern on Rengars skills:
Q- Offense
W- Defense
E- Utility
R- Playmaker skill (mix of offense, defense, and utility)

While it should be
Q- Offense
W- Offense
E- Offense
R- Playmaker skill

Part A: Theme
I think of Rengar as an offensive Fighter, that gets Frenzy when he's able to get to his target. He is no squishy, but no tank either. He is sturdy by nature (aka tanky), because he dwelves into fights with strong prey and he has to be able to withstand their damage.

Part B: Kit and Mechanics
Rengar was designed to be able to kill his target in about 1-2 seconds. Going with this direction though has lead to a kit that will allow Rengar to stay alive just enough to kill his target. This in turn lead to:

  • frontloading his entire damage (and steroid, and effectiveness) in only one skill (Q),
  • providing him an akward, temporary survivability tool (W) and
  • restricting his only gap-closer to his ultimate and brush.
In this kit, his slow is a bit akward, since it isn't either a nuke, or a tool that will reposition Rengar. He also has a really situational passive.

Design disparity: Rengar's intended playstyle closely resembles that of an asssassin. As opposed to the latest assassin releases and remakes though, Rengar has NO ways of getting out of the fight, reliable gap closers, and deals all of his damage through his autoattacks (melee ADcarry playstyle). He should be repurposed as a high offense, medium defense character.

Now, lets break his flaws down, one by one.
Frontloading the damage and offense on 1 skill
Rengar has only 1 skill that *essentially* deals damage, and that is his Q. His W provides him a little bit of survivability for a very short amount of time and deals next to no damage, and his E doesn't deal *that* much damage, nor does it allow for a follow-up if Rengar hits it mid+ range. E truly is a suboptimal skill currently.
If he's supposed to be an offensive character, the offense should be split among his entire kit.


Akward survivability:
His W offers him no stats when it doesn't hit something, nor does it grant ferocity. With its current iteration, when being kited you should be able to use this skill to increase your survivability and reach your target. But right now W is essentially restricting Rengar from having better base stats.

Only gap-closer is on ultimate and brush
Rengar suffers highly from the kiting melee syndrome. If he isn't near brush when he engages and where he lands, he can easily get kited and that invalidates his kit. If he is intended to be played as an all in, either bursty or sustained damage character, he should have more reliable ways of commiting to a target.

Suggested path of action:
Q no longer grants an attk speed buff, or deals damage.
Q now grants %armor penetration for a duration against the target that was hit.
Q2 no longer grants an attk speed buff
Q2 magnifies the Q effect
W no longer grants armor, magic resist, or deals damage
W now grants a medium-high duration attk speed buff, and causes his autoattacks to deal extra damage (scaling)
W2 no longer grants armor, magic resist, deals damage, or heals.
W2 now magnifies the W effect, and now cleanses Rengar.
E no longer deals damage, still slows
E now provides vision of the target for the next x seconds. Rengar's next auto attack against the Bola'd target will cause him to leap to it (only one use per bola).
E2 no longer deals damage, now slows instead of rooting
E2 magnifies the slow a bit, but disables target from using a repositioning skill.


Solved issues:
-Rengar's skills now all follow a higher offense pattern, and allow him to commit to targets.
-Rengar's skills don't deal damage themselves, they empower Rengar to deal higher damage.
-Rengar's old kit encouraged mashing all the buttons to gain low-duration, high-power/burst skills. This lead to not carefully managing Ferocity when going all in. The new pattern encourages more drawn out fights than earlier, so more careful ferocity management will maximize your damage potential. In conjuction with the above fact, Ferocity is no longer a problematic mechanic to Rengars balance.
-More drawn out fights means more realistic cooldowns for Rengar.
-Drawn out fights+ Removing defensiveness from his kit allows to readjust his base stats to be in line with a fighter.

Part C: Bonetooth Necklace
First off, I really like the fact that you are looking at Bonetooth Necklace. I never particularly liked this item, because of its' unreliability and weird mixture of stats it provides. It's main problem is that it's a gamble item, that, in order to be in max effectiveness, requires you to not die once. If you could lock the number of stacks somehow, that would make the item decent.

I was thinking of an iteration where you can upgrade your BTN in the store with gold, but I'm not sure yet. You gain ministacks by killing minions and monsters. After reaching a certain amount of ministacks, you can upgrade your Necklace by offering gold. Killing a champion can make the next upgrade free, or immediately upgrade your necklace.

Let me put an example:
You buy BTN. You cannot upgrade it until you reach 24 stacks. You farm minions and monsters, and once you reach 24 stacks, the 1st upgrade becomes available, which you can buy for 270 gold. Next upgrade becomes available at 48 stacks. Killing a champion can bring you to 48 stacks, add 24 regardless of what your current number of stacks is, automatically upgrade the item to its next level, etc.

What do you think of these? Please give them careful thinking before (if) replying.
I hope I get to discuss with you.

(Repost from previous page)
(Oh, and good luck with your career at Riot Wav3Break!)"


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Whipblade

Junior Member

08-06-2013

Not saying this is a good idea, but if the icon above them or Global VO isn't working with regard to his ultimate, what about having 'a flare of eyes' in the bushes nearest them if his ult is active. (That is - eyes appear in the bushes nearest each enemy champ within 'ult range'.) That way - it's not screaming above their head, but they have to be kind of watching for it.

Granted, the jump won't necessarily be coming from the bushes, but it's something that gives them warning, but is slightly more subtle.

Another idea someone mentioned was being able to see his footprints while in ult mode - this would work too, but would prevent him escaping close calls in some occasions by using it.


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1000midgets

Junior Member

08-06-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atyres View Post
But he counter play has, and always will be, pink wards =/
^^ this right here

Doesnt need any more counterplayy, if they didnt pink against a rengar when he hits 6 its their fault. Shaco and twitch dont have any extra counter play and to top it off its not even their ult and shaco has instant invisibility.


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Darklightning

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

08-06-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Interesting that you bring this up!

Part of the reason for Wav3 and i's radiosilence is that there isn't much to report at present. Other champions are taking testing bandwidth - and while we're definitely getting good iteration on the changes we have, it's not like Lucian, Yi, or other recently 'near-done' testpoints that need multiple balance tests. Generally for things like this it's 'Make change based on hypothesis -> test -> validate -> repeat' Validating what worked/didn't work with a particular iteration is the easy bit (Rengar without %AS on Q felt bad, Rengar with Q-train felt cool), but working on the next iteration to make sure it's still aligned with the changes but making progress can take time.

We're trying some crazy things. Namely, pretty much every human (even those who agree that Rengar stabbing with 0 warning is BS) has been to some degree opposed to the Icon/VO telegraph - and while it's definitely more fair playing against (and not near as detrimental as perceived), there's a lot of validity to the feeling of 'I want to be a hunter lion and this goes against my instinct that i will feel powerful'. It's only one solution out of a lot of them - I hear you guys on this one, and so we're trying alternate approaches to add the appropriate counterplay on the ultimate.

Larger update as soon as we have concrete stuff to show.
Scarizard: I am all for a global VO like Nocturne. I know you said he doesn't globally effect the other team so... WAIT FOR IT... WAIT FOR IT...

THE GLOBAL VO IS tracks behind enemy team across the map. Rengar is tracking them all so they are all influenced! Perhaps if they are within his range of influence he (alone) can see them (though they show on the minimap for everyone) but if they aren't in the sphere of influence all that is added is tracks for the duration. So the enemy can be invisible, but he or she will leave tracks behind. If you wanted you could scrap enemy visibility for Rengar and just give him very brightly laid tracks so that he can hunt his prey... and it allows for traps... stick a pink in a bush as soon as you see tracks behind you and hide in it with your friends. AMBUSH TIME.

If not for Rengar, add this idea into some other champion. It would be such a rush tracking where a champion had been. Where did the tracks go? Ah he flashed or recalled. Lame. Ooo other tracks.

I would love this! Maybe make it so he can see enemies with full stacks. PLS RIOT. At least comment. I never hear from you. Do you hate my haircut? :/

DARKLIGHTNING