Tank Chogath item questions (including- why warmogg's?)

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Deshi

Senior Member

12-13-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Corm View Post
Here, have some math.

This build has 6 Warmog's. It gives you 15,716 effective health, is greatly biased towards physical damage health, grants no benefits other than health, and costs 19200 gold.

This build has a number of different armor, magic resistance, and health items. It gives you 15,096 effective health, is balanced against magic and physical damage, grants some amazing benefits including spell block, damage return, self-revive, and percentage of max health regeneration, and costs 13880.

That's 5320 less gold, for a much greater benefit.
Thanks for your effort there, but I don't recall endorsing getting 6 Warmogs on Cho'gath...


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Xirus

Senior Member

12-13-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tekman View Post
Is this the post the OP is referring to?

http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board...ad.php?t=29398
That is indeed the post i was referring to, I'll edit that into the original post

So seems like the strongest arguments in favour of Warmoggs are:
1. It can't be pierced by all these armour pen/magic pen items running around.
2. Psychology factor- meh in my eyes, don't most opponents get scared by your size/how slowly your health drops? Doesn't matter what gives you the EH, you just need to have high EH.
3. If you die, it helps to have a bit of extra health from warmoggs.

My counter argument to the armour/magic pen argument:
1. If you're a chogath with a warmoggs, the other team is of course going to get a bloodrazor, for an extra 150 damage on you or so? You want to mitigate as much damage of that as possible. Further, if you are forcing the enemy team to get a bunch of last whispers to deal with you, that means they're not buying items that are optimized for killing the squishies on your team?


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Aeth

Member

12-13-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Corm View Post
Except that with all of the stuff you have to buy before it, you're actually spending 3200. That's quite a lot of money which could have gone toward armor, a Banshee's Veil or Force of Nature, or damage.
I'm the author of the thread in question, " [ANALYSIS] Valuation of items, adjusting for stat bonuses". I feel some clarification, and some math, is in order.
If you read carefully, you will see that the valuation of Warmog's Armor already takes the money spent on its components into account. The value I assign to its passive is based on the additional stat bonuses over the components of the Warmog's.

It should be noted that my valuation only takes the base passive into account, and does not consider the bonuses it will eventually accrue. At base, the passive costs you approximately 140 gold.

However, we may consider how much money each minion kill is worth, and see when it breaks even, and how much it is worth when maxed out:

Each minion kill grants 4 hp and .5 hp5. 4 hp is worth 9.6 gold. .5 hp5 is worth 17 gold. Therefore, each passive increase is worth a total of 26.6 gold. This means that Warmog's Armor pays for itself after six kills. Furthermore, when Warmog's is fully leveled, the total worth of the additional bonuses is a whopping 3319 gold. This makes Warmog's one of the most cost-efficient items in the game, and certainly the most cost-effective health item.


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Frostheim

Member

12-13-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Corm View Post
Here, have some math.

This build has 6 Warmog's. It gives you 15,716 effective health, is greatly biased towards physical damage health, grants no benefits other than health, and costs 19200 gold.

This build has a number of different armor, magic resistance, and health items. It gives you 15,096 effective health, is balanced against magic and physical damage, grants some amazing benefits including spell block, damage return, self-revive, and percentage of max health regeneration, and costs 13880.

That's 5320 less gold, for a much greater benefit.
You did not include the bonuses from kills that Warmog's Armor gives, which is one of the reasons why the item is so good.


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Xirus

Senior Member

12-13-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeth View Post
If you read carefully, you will see that the valuation of Warmog's Armor already takes the money spent on its components into account.
If you look at the original post I linked, the math is based on gold/hp and gold/armour or mr. If you break down warmogg's by cost, it gives almost exactly the same health as the red crystals. (3200 for 1350 health vs. 475 for 200) The Warmogg's "bonus" can be viewed as giving 90 health regen.

So you again come to the point, it's more efficient Effective HP per gold to get up to 150 armour/magic resist. The relevant factors to consider are penetration of your armour/mr, the bonuses on the item (warmogg's hp regen, guardian angel's resurrection, etc). It's also superior if you die as cho'gath, which is making me think I'll probably want to take it.


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ShirakFaeryn

Senior Member

12-13-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xirus View Post
If you look at the original post I linked, the math is based on gold/hp and gold/armour or mr. If you break down warmogg's by cost, it gives almost exactly the same health as the red crystals. (3200 for 1350 health vs. 475 for 200) The Warmogg's "bonus" can be viewed as giving 90 health regen.

So you again come to the point, it's more efficient Effective HP per gold to get up to 150 armour/magic resist. The relevant factors to consider are penetration of your armour/mr, the bonuses on the item (warmogg's hp regen, guardian angel's resurrection, etc). It's also superior if you die as cho'gath, which is making me think I'll probably want to take it.
But I think you're forgetting something quite simple sir, and that's how easy it is to reach 150 armor/MR. Grab the Warmogs early, then get yourself a force of nature, gaurdian angel, and a thornmail. There, with your passive armor gain and MR gain you now have hit your softcap of 150 armor and MR. From this point is where the real math should begin, and to be honest after you've gotten yourself a good solid 4k hp and 150 Armr/MR then you should start grabbing things for your team like Stark's fervor, Aegis, Frozen Mallet, etc...


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Purutzil

Senior Member

12-13-2009

Why warmonger's? Simple... more health... AND combining with Force of Nature gives crazier HP regen. The combo on chogath is extremely good due to his much higher health then normal. Also add in the effect armor/Magic resist has diminishing returns it all but chimes in how good it really is.

Getting Warmonger's early helps to get the full stack faster and with Force you gain more staying power with health regeneration (plus a good chunk of magic resist woot!). Frost Hammer gives not only a small boost to damage and a slow, but also a good chunk of health. Considering the fact a tank will want to run in head first, it just makes him even better at picking off an enemy to finish himself or give his teamates a shot.

One can claim you can get bloodrazor to "counter" health, but when it comes down to it, you can counter armor much easier using Last Whisper. I know personally when I play and go warmonger's its very hard to kill me considering how much health regen and the large block of health I have. The theat of physical carries can easily be conteracted until you can invest in some more armor by simply going for Ninja Tabi (insanely good tank boots) if you really view them as such a big threat since dodge, unlike armor, can't be reduced.


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Baron Corm

Senior Member

12-13-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deshi View Post
Thanks for your effort there, but I don't recall endorsing getting 6 Warmogs on Cho'gath...
It's just to illustrate that a mix of health, armor, and magic resistance is more cost-efficient and balanced than stacking health, as some people were suggesting. Note that I did include a Warmog's in the balanced build. It's good to have a bit of everything, as recent posts are starting to agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeth View Post
The value I assign to its passive is based on the additional stat bonuses over the components of the Warmog's.
Why would you do that? It's not useful at all. In a real game, you do have to buy the components.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frostheim View Post
You did not include the bonuses from kills that Warmog's Armor gives, which is one of the reasons why the item is so good.
Yes, I did. The site automatically treats each snowball item at its optimal stage.


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Aeth

Member

12-14-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xirus View Post
If you look at the original post I linked, the math is based on gold/hp and gold/armour or mr. If you break down warmogg's by cost, it gives almost exactly the same health as the red crystals. (3200 for 1350 health vs. 475 for 200) The Warmogg's "bonus" can be viewed as giving 90 health regen.

So you again come to the point, it's more efficient Effective HP per gold to get up to 150 armour/magic resist. The relevant factors to consider are penetration of your armour/mr, the bonuses on the item (warmogg's hp regen, guardian angel's resurrection, etc). It's also superior if you die as cho'gath, which is making me think I'll probably want to take it.
I apologize if my reply seemed to indicate I was taking some sort of stand on purchasing armor vs. hp items or how the opposing team will counter them. I merely wished to clarify the numbers I had produced in my analysis.

Therefore, I am not sure why you quoted me, because it doesn't seem as if what you quoted and what you posted are connected. Since you did however, I will make a few comments about what you wrote.

You make the point that, when maxed, Warmog's gives the same hp per gold for its total cost (including components). I would posit that the time required to max Warmog's should be taken into account. It takes 125 minion kills, minus 10 for each champion kill, to max Warmog's. This takes some time to do, and depending on when Warmog's is purchased, you may not max it at all. If we are trying to value Warmog's as if the hp5 as simply a bonus, then the numbers are quite different.

Before I get into the numbers, I should remind you that I do not value Warmog's in this fashion, but I am simply illustrating this is how one would. In my valuation post, I consider the value of all stats simultaneously.

Warmog's costs 3200 and grants 850 hp. If we consider all of its hp5 as a bonus, and merely wish to value Warmog's on hp alone, then at purchase it is worth 850*2.4 = 2040 gold. As you level the item it eventually reaches its purchase point at around 1333 hp, or 121 creep kills. Until then however, it is less efficient than stacking three Giant's Belts, which gives slighty more hp and is immediately of equal value in terms of hp/gold.

Thus, I think it is important to consider the hp5 and hp bonuses from Warmog's at the same time, and not viewing one as a bonus. hp5 is rather expensive, and the extra hp5 that Warmog's grants is extremely cost effective when combined with the hp bonus.

As to your discussion of effective hp, and buying armor vs hp items, this is not something I have worked the numbers on myself, and so I cannot comment on it.


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Aeth

Member

12-14-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Corm View Post
Why would you do that? It's not useful at all. In a real game, you do have to buy the components.
In a real game, you do not have to buy the components. You can, in fact, buy Warmog's directly. Perhaps you mean to argue that I should consider Warmog's in its totality (total cost and total stat bonuses) instead of relativistically to its component tree?

I don't really understand your point, since if you do buy the components, the additional cost of 1100 to upgrade to Warmog's should be viewed in terms of what you are getting above and beyond what you have already.


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