What Burden of Knowledge actually is.

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Knote

Senior Member

10-30-2010

Uccisore, when you talked about Tryndamere, you said the BoK of his Shout ability actually added something to make it worth the BoK (which was making it so Trynd couldn't use it to escape).

If Rupture had a good reason to be added (it SHOULD be on a champ with abilities that synergize with it anyway), it would work fine right? As well as having the obvious visual cue.

Say if Nidalee's Traps had the Rupture effect, would that be worth the BoK? Since it would synergize BEAUTIFULLY with her Javelin.

Also, what does the BoK of Event Horizon add? Instead of just making it so everyone inside the entire aoe is instantly stunned. To me that seems like "complexity for complexity's sake" which is supposed to be bad when it doesn't add anything (although I don't mind that since it increases the skill ceiling of the ability and makes it more interesting).


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Zeryth

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

10-30-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knote View Post
That's what I meant by "stopping".
and you can also face and run past him to juke him, face and kill him and not just 'stop and face him' right?

with rupture, you do the above other options, you get damage right???


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Knote

Senior Member

10-30-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeryth View Post
and you can also face and run past him to juke him, face and kill him and not just 'stop and face him' right?

with rupture, you do the above other options, you get damage right???
Why would you run past him which would just give him even more hits, and who is to say he is going to shout JUST as the run into brush to juke him. That would probably work on his spin instead.


That's also why I pointed out the Warhammer "Rupture".


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Zeryth

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

10-30-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knote View Post
Why would you run past him which would just give him even more hits, and who is to say he is going to shout JUST as the run into brush to juke him. That would probably work on his spin instead.


That's also why I pointed out the Warhammer "Rupture".
I will run past him because I won't be slowed, I can probably get only 2 hits versus the 5 hits a trynd can do when I get slowed, and maybe limit it to one with BoS and ghost complete with masteries.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Uccisore

Senior Member

10-30-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knote View Post
Uccisore, when you talked about Tryndamere, you said the BoK of his Shout ability actually added something to make it worth the BoK (which was making it so Trynd couldn't use it to escape).

If Rupture had a good reason to be added (it SHOULD be on a champ with abilities that synergize with it anyway), it would work fine right? As well as having the obvious visual cue.
Yeah, absolutely. As Zileas already said, sometimes there's a good reason to use an anti-pattern. That doesn't make the anti-pattern itself good. It's always a negative to the equation- just sometimes there a net gain.

Quote:
Say if Nidalee's Traps had the Rupture effect, would that be worth the BoK? Since it would synergize BEAUTIFULLY with her Javelin.
I don't think 'synergy' is enough to be a gain. If that's all you wanted, a slow on her traps would work just as well, and not cause the anti-pattern. For that matter, the magic resist reduction and reveal that's on them now is designed to synergize with the Javelin, I assume.

But in general, yes, there are times when using an anti-pattern is worth the gain. Veigar's area stun being one, Trynd's stun being another.



Quote:
Also, what does the BoK of Event Horizon add?
It creates a very bizzare semi-cc of 'you can move around in this little area without getting stunned' effect. Champs with long ranged attacks can still fight from within the circle, they can still TRY to dodge skill shots in there without touching the sides and getting stunned, etc. Generates gameplay that would be hard to get another way.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Uccisore

Senior Member

10-30-2010

Bumped because Wingflier asked me to show it to him.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Rogmarz

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

10-30-2010

Ok, I actually went back to re-read the definition Zileas had, and here's what it said (Pay attention to the bold):

Quote:
Burden of Knowledge
This is a VERY common pattern amongst hardcore novice game designers. This pattern is when you do a complex mechanic that creates gameplay -- IF the victim understands what is going on. Rupture is a great example -- with Rupture in DOTA, you receive a DOT that triggers if you, the victim, choose to move. However, you have no way of knowing this is happening unless someone tells you or unless you read up on it online... So the initial response is extreme frustration. We believe that giving the victim counter gameplay is VERY fun -- but that we should not place a 'burden of knowledge' on them figuring out what that gameplay might be. That's why we like Dark Binding and Black Shield (both of which have bait and/or 'dodge' counter gameplay that is VERY obvious), but not Rupture, which is not obvious.

In a sense, ALL abilities have some burden of knowledge, but some have _a lot more_ -- the ones that force the opponent to know about a specific interaction to 'enjoy' the gameplay have it worst.
I still don't see how Event Horizon fits in at all. Assuming the Veigar isn't a moron, you're either trapped inside or stunned. Stunned doesn't require the victim to do anything, so let's look at the trap. You either wait the duration, or try to run unsuccessfully and get stunned. After the first few times, it's intuitively obvious that you shouldn't try to escape it (because you can't).

At no point, in any of these outcomes, does the best course of action require the victim to know the specifics of the skill itself. If you look at LoL, most skills work this way. One you mentioned was Tryndamere's and I completely agree. Without reading up on the skill, a newer victim might believe that the skill ALWAYS slows, instead of connecting it to which direction he's facing. THAT is Burden of Knowledge.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Uccisore

Senior Member

10-30-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogmarz View Post
At no point, in any of these outcomes, does the best course of action require the victim to know the specifics of the skill itself.
Yeah, you make a good point, and I think you're right when it comes to melee champs. Maybe most champs. But there are champs that have long range attacks that could still fight back effectively from within the 'cage'. So there's still cases where, from Veigar's perspective, he's dropping is Stun, and hoping the victim plays the game wrong such that the ability works. Of course, if Tristana is on full health in attack range and it's 1v1, dropping the cage around her so she can just continue to stand there shooting your tower is a bad idea anyway, so maybe you're right.

Quote:
If you look at LoL, most skills work this way. One you mentioned was Tryndamere's and I completely agree. Without reading up on the skill, a newer victim might believe that the skill ALWAYS slows, instead of connecting it to which direction he's facing. THAT is Burden of Knowledge.
Sort of. I still think there's cases where that's not Burden of Knowledge. Like, Teemo's traps. It might take a long time for a player to figure out why the ground is exploding and hurting him, but that's not BoK, because you aren't relying on the victim knowing for the traps to 'work right'- most elements of their design come into play even if the victim knows nothing about them.

Trynd's slow is BoK because the only thing that makes it different from Nasus' slow is something out of his control, that the victim is unlikely to utilize. Just like with Rupture, the only thing that makes it different than any other DoT, is that maybe the victim will stop moving.

Imagine if you had an ability that was the opposite of Kennen's passive:

Passive: When the same champion attacks you x times in a row, that champion is stunned.

That would be BoK because it only affects the game if the other guy 'plays right'.