I just realized why Trundle needed a lore change.

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Skyhawke

Senior Member

04-04-2013

It's a valid point, but I think they could have gone a different direction. I don't feel like they had to completely gut Trundle to make him a more credible member of the League. If his story was too complete they could have had him join another faction that finally accepted him and made him feel worth it. That would still maintain his complexity as a character instead of marginalizing him into a much flatter character. Heck, they could have changed his JoJ lore to them NOT finding the cure if that was truly a big problem, and then he would have had a reason to stay in the League, albeit as a solitary figure.

I always thought Trundle changes were necessary, so it's not the change I oppose. I'm just disappointed with how he was changed. It certainly seems from my end that they saw an interesting character on the margins, and decided to homogenize him as much as they could for the masses. That is what concerns me. I desperately want to be proved wrong here. I've stood by Riot ever since I played LoL, and I will continue to stand by them. But this felt like they took the quick and easy road instead of the more rewarding "road less traveled."

EDIT: A big thanks to IronStylus for his thoughts on the matter. I'm looking forward to more feedback and discourse with Rioters about the Trundle changes.


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Darkwahn

Member

04-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyrrion View Post
Jarvan doesn't have a kingdom to run that's certainly not rubbing elbows with Noxus. That also means Darius, Swain, Kat, and company are all playing goldfish waiting for their next League match as Demacians take lessons in gardening taught by Garen.

And there's certainly nothing going down in Frejlord right now.

I'd say his point stands, as it's just as easy to find champs who really don't have much reason to be in the league.(Syndra, Karthus, TF, Zed, Kassadin, Annie, Morde etc.) That also doesnt include anyone who is in the league just because someone else said so. He didnt say all, he said about half, which seems to be near true. Maybe a quarter of them?


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Thornmaelstrom

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Senior Member

04-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Fringe is different than one-off. Having characters in the periphery is absolutely fine. We need those contrasts. Not everyone is going to be aligned in an official or ideological sense, but we have to reduce the occurrence of characters that might as well not be part of the universe do to their origins or circumstances.
Can we get some landmarks or other 'personality' traits for the lands, like the Shurima Desert or the difference between the Plague and Kumungu jungles? (I didn't even realize they were separate until that reddit thread about character relationships awhile ago)

I really don't mind that Taric isn't connected to anybody else, but he doesn't feel like he belongs ANYWHERE. There's no "Freljord is to the North, Ionia is to the East" or whatever feeling of directionality. Even with Malphite you can at least picture the majesty and otherworldliness of the Monolith, even though it's nowhere in Valoran. Malphite isn't even in the same dimension as his homeland, yet feels more grounded than many of the outliers.

P.S. Still advocating a 'Pandimensional Pyramid' in the Shurima Desert that is identical in different dimensions; and Nasus/Renekton thought they were still in their own worlds until they had a chance to walk outside and see how the stars & sands were alien to them.


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Snotlauncher

Member

04-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Fringe is different than one-off. Having characters in the periphery is absolutely fine. We need those contrasts. Not everyone is going to be aligned in an official or ideological sense, but we have to reduce the occurrence of characters that might as well not be part of the universe do to their origins or circumstances.
Doesn't mean the essence of a character should be gutted either. *cough* Trundle.


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Kuroi kiri

Senior Member

04-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
That's a problem. It's a big problem. Runaan is going to speak to this, if she hasn't already, but I want to emphasize that this is very much something we want to avoid. This is something we are reconciling as you see to the changes in lore that are happening, the assigning of factions, allegiances, etc.

We never want to complete out a champion's lore from inception. We want to have lots of room to tell a lot more stories. We don't want to conclude to a hard certainty because that closes the arch of a character. Integration with other characters, factions, etc, strengthens characters because it allows for continuous interactions, cross pollination and alliances. One-off-ism makes things not only confusing, but puts our characters at such distance from each other they may have no way to have a reasonable trajectory with each other. We need opportunities for characters to cross paths, to have relationships, to create conflict.

Again, Runaan will speak a lot to this. I'm not sure if she's gotten a chance to post about Trundle specifically. We've talked a lot about this before, and I'd like us to message why we do the things we do.
You have to remember that the league isnt ONLY factions blah blah blah its also the institute where the most powerful gather to fight each other and these fights are broadcast to the entire world to watch and it owns and protects vast magicial stores of knowledge and artifacts

there is much much more to the institue of war than just a means to solve disputes without destroying the world that may have been how it started but now that they have pretty much set themselves up as "rulers" of valoran theres far more going on

you can see this with the lore behind the war in ionia they were not a part of the institute so the institute didnt help them untill they joined and olafs lore offers great insight on it as well

Every character has reasons for being at the institute its just for some like syndra you did a poor job of displaying it if you had made the reason syndra joined the league beacuse she was getting bored and wanted to fluant her limitless power to the world you wouldnt have anywhere near as many people saying she doesnt have a proper reason to be there as you get


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Chibodee Crocket

Senior Member

04-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Fringe is different than one-off. Having characters in the periphery is absolutely fine. We need those contrasts. Not everyone is going to be aligned in an official or ideological sense, but we have to reduce the occurrence of characters that might as well not be part of the universe do to their origins or circumstances.
Leona and Diana lore change then please. They need to belong to major faction, please gut their lore like you did Trundles.


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Galgus

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Senior Member

04-04-2013

I imagine he still hopes and searches for an end to the pain and greater acceptance, which could get him tied up in some deal.

It could be a beginning of his story rather than the end.


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Marisa

Senior Member

04-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Fringe is different than one-off. Having characters in the periphery is absolutely fine. We need those contrasts. Not everyone is going to be aligned in an official or ideological sense, but we have to reduce the occurrence of characters that might as well not be part of the universe do to their origins or circumstances.
I actually think it would be cool to have the characters "forced" into aligning themselves more closely towards other sides or to more concretely define their own sides.

Part of what can make character interaction interesting and lore-enrichening is the contrast between characters who are actually very different on a personality level. Right now, I feel like League Lore is trying a little too hard to reestablish characters along personality parallels, much like how Volibear has been changed to be allied with Sejuani.

What I'm saying is that characters that struggle to show the differences between their overall belief in their faction are made more interesting and more "worthy" than characters that are simply aligned specifically because their factions and ideals are the same. There's a lot of potential for this to still happen in League Lore, but, for example, Trundle being aligned with Lissandra has little pay-off even though their personalities could be widely different because of how subservient he seems to be towards her. There needs to be a kind of balancing of personality between characters of conflict that elevates servants and tools to desire their own goals.


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exe3

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Senior Member

04-04-2013

Playing devils advocate Riot could have easily changed Trundle to retcon the stuff that sent his story to a dead-end and re-open his story of finding a cure. Maybe the plague itself could have been expanded upon, maybe someone created the plague and on Trundle's journey to cure it he finds out who (que new champion subtitled "The Plague Master") and there's a story plot that the person will use their plague to rule the world somehow. The original story being poorly written into a dead end isn't a reason to scrap the whole thing, it's a reason to rewrite the story, keep all the important bits but keeping it open so that a further story could be continued.


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woopyfrood

Senior Member

04-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Fringe is different than one-off. Having characters in the periphery is absolutely fine. We need those contrasts. Not everyone is going to be aligned in an official or ideological sense, but we have to reduce the occurrence of characters that might as well not be part of the universe do to their origins or circumstances.
Why does every champion need a permanently-unsolved conflict with the rest of the world in order to be in the League? Many champs trade their services for the League itself to solve their problem, or simply join for fame and fun. They are professional athletes, and they come from all walks of life. Some are in it for others, some are in it for their own plans, and some are in it for the game itself.

I liked Trundle for many reasons, and one of them was because, in his judgement, it was revealed that his main motivation for staying in the league was no longer to dispel the curse, but to finally be accepted somewhere, and to not be alone. A chance to team up with others, and even have fans. He was truly in the League for the sake of being there. Being in the League brought him contentment. If anything, that was his faction.