Journey Into The Freljord III: The Troll King

First Riot Post
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Dalthine

Junior Member

03-27-2013

Riot, based on the information that we have been exposed to, I have two comments.

1. The original Trundle had a unique aesthetic and build that is being dropped for the new build. It seems to me that the creativity that was present in his original design is being traded for badassery, which I feel is a mistake.

2. The original Trundle's base lore painted him as actually a good guy despite his ugliness which played well into his snarkiness and dry humor, and the Journey into Freljord paints him as a rogue brute. Again, I feel this is a mistake.

There are plenty of badasses about the League. It doesn't hurt to lose one to keep variety and preserve one of our more cartoony champs, which are an increasingly small percentage of what is available to us.

I will reserve final judgment until I see the total result of your efforts, but please keep these concerns in mind as you evolve the update to Trundle.


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Muranodo

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Senior Member

03-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raviance View Post
I am not ignoring anything, I am waiting for the story. Sejuani was gone, her tribe had no contact, she hadn't been seen since saying "no" to joining Ashes fiasco. Quinn comes out and is like.. "she is here". It is a "shoehorn" so far, but let's wait. Just because Riot does not answer directly or instantly doesn't mean they didn't hear.

Yes Sejuani received countless complaints on many fronts and you still haven't said what lacked cohesion.

If a mage came to Trundle and said the institute has "A" cure but I can cure your flesh issue and you can keep all your gifts too. Why wouldn't he take it?
None of your statements lead anywhere. You mention wait and see. Riot has a track record of their wait and see not panning out with skins as of late. Karma's update has an extremely mixed reception. You keep asking why he wouldn't take it. There's a gap in Trundle's story that could fill pages. Can I give a reason why he wouldn't take it? Yes. His disease is more than him and has the impact of his tribe on the line. See his judgment. He has good reason to keep it rather than let them face the utter consequences of what the disease did for their generation genetically.

The complaints by fans raise legitimate points and point towards an undesirable end. If you want a cohesive argument then state why prior fans of Trundle should absolutely wait when that may result in it being too far down the pipeline for anything. There's too many thoughts to consider that don't go anywhere. It's okay to use theoreticals but we're going off raw evidence and the baseline attachment that we have. This is not Trundle. Lore rewrites feel off. See feelings on Karma, Katarina,and Soraka/Ww as a whole yet. This reaction is based off way more hard to change facets than a simple lore change. Far more deadly to the character when lore changes can already be pretty damning.


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SlightlySuicidal

Member

03-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
"Growing out of childhood runt status" involves Trundle not being "runty" (scrappy, sarcastic, gutsy, scrambly, etc.) anymore, and considering that's exactly what old Trundle has to offer, this would be considered a change so great that the end product has so little in common with the original that it can't really be considered the same thing anymore.

It's not an advancement--it's a 180 degree change. This isn't what happened with Karma, as she was taken from "not really an Ionian spiritual leader" to "REALLY an Ionian spiritual leader"; the core of her concept was clarified by eliminating obscuring/distracting/contradicting elements, and in terms of design, that was a decision that yielded positive results for readability, clarity, and direction. This is an advancement--this is taking something and making it more apparent.

Trundle's case is not so. It's just about as drastic a change as Dante in DMC 1-4 and DmC--while players had grown attached to the impossibly cool, white-haired, flashy as all hell Demon Slayer, Ninja Theory slapped that down because "HE NEEDS TO BE MORE MODERN (AND ALSO LOOK LIKE THE LEAD DESIGNER)" and the end product was something that retained none of the redeeming elements of the original. If you look on the Internet (especially YouTube comments), you'll see two main arguments: the "they ruined Dante!!" school, and the "I like this new Dante, the old one was awful!!" school.

Are either of these groups right? Objectively, no--the appeal of various qualities is entirely subjective. What happened here, was a large target market shift--wherein the developers made the decision to make Dante more appealing to a playerbase that valued greatly different qualities than the original playerbase, thus making it less appealing to the original place in the process. This, of course, resulted in a great amount of backlash from the established playerbase, and the HD Collection outselling the new installment.

Now, let's take a look at this thread. The comments here can basically separated into two distinct groups: the "Trundle is ruined!" group (consisting of Trundle's original playerbase), and the "I like this new Trundle better than the old one!" group. What has happened here, is a shift of playerbase--Riot made the design decision to make Trundle appeal to a wider group, whereas he initially had more of a cult following (as niche things tend to have). The difference between DmC and Trundle's VU, here, is that Riot isn't releasing new purchasable content--everyone that liked old Trundle has already purchased him, and now that the VU is happening, people that didn't like Trundle but like the new one will purchase him.

What has effectively happened is the equivalent of renovating someone's house while they were away and putting up a For Sale sign. People that liked Trundle before paid money (or the time commitment of IP) to be able to play him, and soon enough, people are going to be paying for the new Trundle--except now, there won't be any access to old Trundle.

Riot can get away with doing what Ninja Theory couldn't, because money is already in their pockets. They can only make a profit from this, and the consumer rule of "talk with your wallet" is no longer in effect because the wallets have already spoken.

It's technically not illegal, and certainly not a losing situation in terms of monetary gain, but it's also not the most honorable direction Riot could've gone with.
well said.

makes me respect riot less and less with their overall decision making in S3. this one really takes the cake though if they take away the disease part of him (which it looks like that's what they are doing).


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Galgus

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Senior Member

03-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raviance View Post
He isn't regening that fast at the moment its a continual game of rot and regen because of the curse. He is rather horrible looking with the peeling and dripping flesh. Along with the pain how much more regen can he handle with flesh already dripping off of him.
He doesn't heal like most champions do.

Most champions would need their wounds to close an mend, but Trundle's body regularly replaces tissue in a cycle of rot and regeneration.

However, its possible that his regeneration is stronger near his vital organs so they they do not suffer this cycle as much; and taking a hit to such a place would still be dangerous for Trundle.


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Fishing Boat

Member

03-27-2013

I'm concerned with the connection to Lissandra. We're talking about some legendary ice-witch, and yet we have no idea what kind of power Lissandra uses. I feel like there's some foreshadowed connection between Lissandra and the Ice-Witch, since we know for one thing that Lissandra is almost definitely a mage, by looking at her leaked recommended items. I can't wait to see what Lissandra does in the fourth journal.


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LORD 69ER

Junior Member

03-27-2013

trooollol


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Mad Hit Monkey

Senior Member

03-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
Now, let's take a look at this thread. The comments here can basically separated into two distinct groups: the "Trundle is ruined!" group (consisting of Trundle's original playerbase), and the "I like this new Trundle better than the old one!" group. What has happened here, is a shift of playerbase--Riot made the design decision to make Trundle appeal to a wider group, whereas he initially had more of a cult following (as niche things tend to have).
I love how the Anti-Relaunch group seems to think it speaks for all the Trundle players. There are some people who own and play Trundle that like the change, you know.

I paid money for just about every damn champion short of a handful, including Trundle, and I did it in support of Riot the company, not Trundle the Champion. I do not consider this a waste of money, since I love the game, and I'm sure plenty of other players have done so as well.

Meanwhile you have the Trundle-players who aren't as close-minded and ego-centric enough to assume that they represent the entire fanbase, who look at the changes and say 'You know, that's not all that bad. I like this change'. They are adapting to it.

Neither of these player groups are represented in the 'Supreme Cult of Trundle'.

Wait for the relaunch to get put into the PBE, wait for more information, and for God's Sake, stay calm and shut up. Your lack of patience, information, and rational thinking is annoying everyone else. Including the Trundle Players.


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SoBeNirvana

Adjudicator

03-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
Perhaps you'd like to play as Ashe, Sejuani, Anivia, Nunu, or the up-and-coming Lissandra?

Some people like having super nasty disease powers. These people no longer have options.

Do you see where some of the dissatisfaction may be coming from, here?
Having a Champion powered by poop would be unique.

Would it be a good idea?

No.

Uniqueness doesn't necessarily equate with value. That's a fallacy a lot of Trundle fans are making right now.


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Afrocalypse

Senior Member

03-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Hit Monkey View Post
I love how the Anti-Relaunch group seems to think it speaks for all the Trundle players. There are some people who own and play Trundle that like the change, you know.

I paid money for just about every damn champion short of a handful, including Trundle, and I did it in support of Riot the company, not Trundle the Champion. I do not consider this a waste of money, since I love the game, and I'm sure plenty of other players have done so as well.

Meanwhile you have the Trundle-players who aren't as close-minded and ego-centric enough to assume that they represent the entire fanbase, who look at the changes and say 'You know, that's not all that bad. I like this change'. They are adapting to it.

Neither of these player groups are represented in the 'Supreme Cult of Trundle'.

Wait for the relaunch to get put into the PBE, wait for more information, and for God's Sake, stay calm and shut up. Your lack of patience, information, and rational thinking is annoying everyone else. Including the Trundle Players.
No you shut up. I don't even wanna point out everything that's an insult in your post, but let me tell you: Showing your dislike to people who generalize stuff by generalizing them is stupid. I don't think anyone who talks about their problems with the relaunch thinks he speaks for everyone, I don't even know how you got that idea.


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Mughi of Ruckus

Senior Member

03-27-2013

You know, it's kind of funny. Trundle's lore blurb gave me one impression of him and his judgement a completely different one. I remember liking the former, not caring too much for the latter, and not knowing where he might be going. The answer, it seems, is a wholly disconnected third option. From a peaceful band of trolls to a warlike one. From someone who gave himself for a noble sacrifice to a troll barking orders. From the runt of the litter to the king. Really, other than this being a troll, I have no idea what this is supposed to have in common with Trundle.

The sad thing is this went from interesting story without a hook to generic troll. Also, going by this track record we have:

Ashe's home city: Safe!
Allied town one: Terrified!
Allied town two: Sacked!
Allied town three: Defected!
Allied town four: Sacked!

So...I know you're trying to show the fierceness of the the other factions in Frejord, but there are ways of doing this that don't involve making joining Ashe seem like a very bad idea, because all we've seen of Ashe in these expeditions is that she's a very nice person who's not very capable of defending her allies.

Also, I really think you can make Trundle a troll king in Frejord, without making him a brutal alpha troll king. Hopefully nuance and development is forthcoming.

Edit: Just corrected it so it actually makes sense. I don't remember having been drunk when I typed this, but apparently...