So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
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Healurownbum

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldmanj View Post
im going to miss her heal. but going to love tethers new ability. To bad that aoe damage from empowered q couldnt give a heal to allies standing on it as well. Or maybe spreading out the heal effect from empowered tether to nearby allies for a reduced amount of the heal on yourself, or heal the nearest ally with the lowest health as well.
I was always a "fan" of karma being able to deal damage as well as heal her allies at the same time. It was quirky and unexpected giving you an added advantage especially while supporting your adc.

All in all I am liking the changes, will definitely be at the AMA to see if my other questions might get answered
Would of been cool if her R/Q still healt some from what it looks now all her power went in to R/E leaving R/Q R/W behind. But we still got to see base and ratios on R/E. But atm it looks too strong.


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Wolven Swiftwind

Member

03-18-2013

you ruined karma.....thanks riot...


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DemiluniS

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolven Swiftwind View Post
you ruined karma.....thanks riot...
another crybaby


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Gazragar

Junior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Quite frankly, having a kit that encourages you to be a low health to be more effective is both counter intuitive and troll-ish.

There are a few cases where it has worked (Olaf/Tryn) but only because of how limited they are by their melee nature. A ranged caster (a squishy concept) isn't the right place for that kind of mechanic. I appreciate how much you care, but that's not a great expenditure of our design and player-education dollars.
Point taken - but it does seem a trifle odd that her passive is tied SOLELY to her Ult. Are there other champs with the same thing? Well, aside from Elise/Jayce, whose Ults are on far lower cooldowns.


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Severian NA

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Huh.

Certainly not as bad as I feared, but I will miss the cone percentage heal. The changes to E and W does compensate for that, and I can see how they might even be better in general. Still, W could be a bit more dynamic. Without the numbers it is impossible to form a real impression of her, so I can't really say what I think.

Also, I can see from the responses made by Riot that there is more depth to this kit than I at first thougth. It does seem a bit one-dimensional on the surface, but I hope I will be pleasantly suprised.

I can see that there has been a real drive to keep what I/we love about Karma's gameplay, and I appreciate that greatly. It makes it easier to swallow what is lost or lessened. Thank you! I can't overstate that.

-------

Yet. It really suprises me, how galling the loss of her old passive is. I knew it would be a blow, but it is like you removed a piece of her soul. Karma felt unique and her passive had a large part in that. I didn't fully realize how much it mattered it seems.

Xelnath speaks very strongly about how this passive is an anathema to the vision :P I appreciate that honesty and realize that indicates it wasn't just removed on a whim (which I also appreciate). As a LoL player I'm a noob. I am Bronze IV. My words don't carry much weight. Still, I'm going to call you out on a few things, Xelnath.

I agree, a kit encouraging you to be low HP is a bad thing. The times the passive made me feel like I should be low HP wasn't a good feeling. It just feels wrong, as you say. But that was a minor hitch when I started learning her. I quickly came to my senses. The passive is rarely worth being low HP. Of course, I consider the fact that I benefit from low health, but it is a far stretch from damning me to forever live on the edge to exploit my passive. I try to heal up whenever I can.

Was I wrong? Should I have taken turret hits to maximise my AP? Is her passive really forcing you to play at low hp? Did I play her poorly if I didn't aim to be at least half dead most of the time?

And about the ranged caster thing, I won't presume to dictate how you design your game. I am a bit suprised that you feel so strongly about it though. I didn't feel like I was a ranged troll because of that passive. If I was low HP, I usually died if something looked my way and my cooldowns were up or I made a mistake, reacted too slow, etc. If I had Tryndamere on my ass, I was screwed no matter what I did. I just melted if the gear was somewhat even. Many melee were scary, but I still have nightmares about him >.<

Yes, I see that it is problematic in general, but I can't see how it is an absolute nono. Taking a typical melee thing and putting it on a caster type really makes a mark, and Karma is perfect for this. Are you really aiming to turn her into a squishy mage in every respect? Can't a mage have some sort of strength boost when the straits are dire? Are you sure you're not overdoing the streamlining? Let her be the exception *.*

Right you are, I feel very strongly about this. It is a major change to what makes Karma fun, what makes her Karma. I have had enough of those :P Karma is a champion with an exceptional inner strength. Was that removed from her concept? Is she just a spiritual power mage now?
And making her inner flame manifest like this new Q... >.< Seriously. That is Brands inner flame, more like :P I wish you'd rename that ability...
But I digress.

I realize that this has been said time and time again, but it is vital. I feel you are making a huge mistake in removing this passive. When I play other characters with shields and/or heals, they do the same thing, dying or not. Karma felt different. As your situation worsened, she was empowered. It bolstered your spirit when you needed it the most. That did not change the fact that your situation was deteriorating. It was not a "Yay, I'm dying!" kind of thing. It gave me hope and determination when I had to face unfavourable odds. It is such an important part of the appeal Karma has, that I implore you to reconsider, or to figure out some other way of giving her a tangible manifestation of indominable will in the face of adversity. If you don't like this way for whatever reason. I want to retain that part of her.


So. I don't want a mechanic that makes me value low hp over full hp. That would not be fun at all. What I don't get is why she can't have an edge as her situation grows more desperate. If this old passive wasn't doing this in a good way, is it impossible, or bad design, to figure out a different way? Pretty please?

Please give me your thoughts if you can. @Xelnath @Scarizard @Morello


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DemiluniS

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazragar View Post
Point taken - but it does seem a trifle odd that her passive is tied SOLELY to her Ult. Are there other champs with the same thing? Well, aside from Elise/Jayce, whose Ults are on far lower cooldowns.
you don't know karma's ult cooldown yet


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Healurownbum

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Severian NA View Post
Huh.

Certainly not as bad as I feared, but I will miss the cone percentage heal. The changes to E and W does compensate for that, and I can see how they might even be better in general. Still, W could be a bit more dynamic. Without the numbers it is impossible to form a real impression of her, so I can't really say what I think.

Also, I can see from the responses made by Riot that there is more depth to this kit than I at first thougth. It does seem a bit one-dimensional on the surface, but I hope I will be pleasantly suprised.

I can see that there has been a real drive to keep what I/we love about Karma's gameplay, and I appreciate that greatly. It makes it easier to swallow what is lost or lessened. Thank you! I can't overstate that.

-------

Yet. It really suprises me, how galling the loss of her old passive is. I knew it would be a blow, but it is like you removed a piece of her soul. Karma felt unique and her passive had a large part in that. I didn't fully realize how much it mattered it seems.

Xelnath speaks very strongly about how this passive is an anathema to the vision :P I appreciate that honesty and realize that indicates it wasn't just removed on a whim (which I also appreciate). As a LoL player I'm a noob. I am Bronze IV. My words don't carry much weight. Still, I'm going to call you out on a few things, Xelnath.

I agree, a kit encouraging you to be low HP is a bad thing. The times the passive made me feel like I should be low HP wasn't a good feeling. It just feels wrong, as you say. But that was a minor hitch when I started learning her. I quickly came to my senses. The passive is rarely worth being low HP. Of course, I consider the fact that I benefit from low health, but it is a far stretch from damning me to forever live on the edge to exploit my passive. I try to heal up whenever I can.

Was I wrong? Should I have taken turret hits to maximise my AP? Is her passive really forcing you to play at low hp? Did I play her poorly if I didn't aim to be at least half dead most of the time?

And about the ranged caster thing, I won't presume to dictate how you design your game. I am a bit suprised that you feel so strongly about it though. I didn't feel like I was a ranged troll because of that passive. If I was low HP, I usually died if something looked my way and my cooldowns were up or I made a mistake, reacted too slow, etc. If I had Tryndamere on my ass, I was screwed no matter what I did. I just melted if the gear was somewhat even. Many melee were scary, but I still have nightmares about him >.<

Yes, I see that it is problematic in general, but I can't see how it is an absolute nono. Taking a typical melee thing and putting it on a caster type really makes a mark, and Karma is perfect for this. Are you really aiming to turn her into a squishy mage in every respect? Can't a mage have some sort of strength boost when the straits are dire? Are you sure you're not overdoing the streamlining? Let her be the exception *.*

Right you are, I feel very strongly about this. It is a major change to what makes Karma fun, what makes her Karma. I have had enough of those :P Karma is a champion with an exceptional inner strength. Was that removed from her concept? Is she just a spiritual power mage now?
And making her inner flame manifest like this new Q... >.< Seriously. That is Brands inner flame, more like :P I wish you'd rename that ability...
But I digress.

I realize that this has been said time and time again, but it is vital. I feel you are making a huge mistake in removing this passive. When I play other characters with shields and/or heals, they do the same thing, dying or not. Karma felt different. As your situation worsened, she was empowered. It bolstered your spirit when you needed it the most. That did not change the fact that your situation was deteriorating. It was not a "Yay, I'm dying!" kind of thing. It gave me hope and determination when I had to face unfavourable odds. It is such an important part of the appeal Karma has, that I implore you to reconsider, or to figure out some other way of giving her a tangible manifestation of indominable will in the face of adversity. If you don't like this way for whatever reason, I want to retain that part of her.


So. I don't want a mechanic that makes me value low hp over full hp. That would not be fun at all. What I don't get is why she can't have an edge as her situation grows more desperate. If this old passive wasn't doing this in a good way, is it impossible, or bad design, to figure out a different way? Pretty please?

Please give me your thoughts if you can. @Xelnath @Scarizard @Morello
First off Yay ur back hadnt seen u inawhile (I know weird! But i like reading your posts)

And i always saw her passive more as part of that iron will. U will not break me i will grow stronger. Not something u would on purpose use but more so something when stuff gets tough you could deal with it as you got tougher Now she is going to be more of ranged dmg dealer, i cant help but compare her to Lux but without a proper ult to finish off the enemy. But again i dont know her scaling and base dmg of the abilities! And i will have to judge her when she is on the PBE.

Altho i know alrdy im going to be much harsher at judging her as i expect alot more. She lost her balance and is now a APC more then a support.


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ThermoFusion

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Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metronomotopoeia View Post
For me, the reverse-execute design of her heal and just the flavor of the passive sold the "Karma" idea more than their actual practicality as dive-bait.

The disappointment isn't that she can't whip out a Needlessly Large Rod (*wink wink*) at 30% health anymore, it's that, as I think Scarizard mentioned, there's nothing 'karmatic' about her anymore. With her current art direction, she should be renamed Storm, or Jubilee. She looks way more superhero than diplomat, and nothing about her kit says 'turning the tide' or 'maintaining balance' at all.
This. A hundred times this!

They virtually changed everything about her except the name. And now the name is totally out of place. This new champ does not have a 'karma' or balance theme, nor does this new champ resemble the original Karma character in any meaningful way. I would be so much happier if they would just admit they wanted Karma removed from the game, and give this new kit the new name it merits.

Because really, I don't dislike this new kit (except the Leblanc style tether, I dislike that part). I'm sure this new design will be fun to play. What bothers me is the pretense that this new thing is Karma.

Give this new champ design a flashy new name to match the flashy new image she's got going, and I'd unlock that champ and even pay RP to unlock a skin!

But to take away everything that I liked about Karma and tell me this is supposed to be an improvement over the original... it makes me wonder if anyone working on this rework actually liked Karma... or had ever spoken to someone that does.


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Needles K

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazragar View Post
Point taken - but it does seem a trifle odd that her passive is tied SOLELY to her Ult. Are there other champs with the same thing?
It's similar to Shyvana's fury mechanic, though that isn't technically her passive.


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Needles K

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DemiluniS View Post
you don't know karma's ult cooldown yet
Since the cooldown is lowered by everything Karma does, smart money is on "pretty long."