So, about that Karma leak...

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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melancholy Exile View Post
I'm a lore guy: No wonder we're at loggerheads

Honestly, I think I'm kinda done after, once again, being reminded of my own limited perspective on these things by yourself. I usually find that whenever I take an outspoken stance on things like this I focus on certain parts of it above all else and zone out a lot of the external forces that influence them, leaving me with a rather myopic view of these things. Thanks to that, I feel like it'd be a good idea for me to take a step or three back.

Maybe we can talk about this some other time but, for now, I can't help but realise how deep I've gone into this without a proper understanding.
I respect that.

Just like to point out it's quite simple, it seems that ultimately your argument is 'look at her lore, you can discover her theme right there, so thats what she's supposed to be like!'

Which in reality is yet against in battle of Riot's standards in terms of making a design as readable as possible, which I have explained with my previous post, I hope you'll read it.

PS: Just like ItemsGuy, I love lore as well. Lore-dependance however is just not that healthy for the game especially for people who are not interested in lore at all, as you are pretty much forcing them to read it or live in confusion when playing against loredependant characters.


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Whyumai

Senior Member

03-17-2013

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Originally Posted by Dobyk View Post
I think she is a better support now. More harass and zoning potential, much larger AA range, shield + buff is OP, and she has MORE CC now, which is brilliant. Because her Mantra is not a straighforward damaging ability, it gives her a tremendous amount of flexibility. Whether baiting under tower with Renewal, or initiating with Soulflare, or hasting her team or securing a retreat with Defiance, she has a lot of choices to make as a support, which is fun. If the CC numbers are high enough, she will be viable. They removed the sustain, so she is more of an aggressive, "set-up-kills" support rather than a sustain. Her only real counter I can envision is Taric, because of stun, tankiness, sustain.
Harass and Zoning are a very small part of being a support. It's important early game but not so important later on (which is good since supports tend not to scale without AP enough to deal much damage with pokes).

Karma still can't peel and now cannot heal her ADC. I don't agree that these changes adds that much flexibility. There's only one mantra charge so in actual fact you are more limited in your choices than you are with Karma now.

I can't see how Soulflare could be consider any real form of initiation. Poke, sure. Initiation? No. While I agree that she has choices (and she currently has choices btw) it's just that those choices aren't actually supportive in nature. Soulflare deals damage and slows. That's not really supportive. It's about as supportive as Nidalee's Spear.

Focused Resolve isn't actually that supportive at all. It cannot be cast on allies (as far as I can work out) so its entirely a damage spell (which can heal only Karma if cast with mantra). Furthermore it's a root if you keep them tethered long enough. It's damage. There's no slow. There is no haste. The root is delayed. It's not good for support. Fine for damage just like Leblanc's ethereal chains are. Not good for support though. You need that peel now not after your ADC is dead.

Inspire is really the only supportive ability left. It's a shield and a haste. It's an AoE shield with haste (with mantra). That's good. No complaints there. But it uses all your mantra charges (since you only have one now).

As for Karma having more harass now? It's hard to say. Karma already has decent harass with her shield and AoE Q. While Karma probably is dealing more damage (she has three reliable damage spells - if you use mantra on her E). Hard to know if she's got more harass or not. From the sounds of her wave clear involving using Mantra, I think she might be dealing less damage, perhaps. Who knows?

Anyway, supportive wise I feel she'll be weaker. No heal, only one real supportive ability and a delayed root won't help her be any better as a support.

Time will tell for sure. 'Till then, remember that Lux can double shield her whole team, instant root, AoE slow, and has an ultimate. The only thing this new karma seems to have is that she can self-heal and a haste. Not a good spot to be in. I can't see how you would want to play the new Karma over Lux as a support.


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melancholy Exile View Post
I'm a lore guy: No wonder we're at loggerheads

Honestly, I think I'm kinda done after, once again, being reminded of my own limited perspective on these things by yourself. I usually find that whenever I take an outspoken stance on things like this I focus on certain parts of it above all else and zone out a lot of the external forces that influence them, leaving me with a rather myopic view of these things. Thanks to that, I feel like it'd be a good idea for me to take a step or three back.

Maybe we can talk about this some other time but, for now, I can't help but realise how deep I've gone into this without a proper understanding.
No worries, dude! I know how you are, this isn't the first time this has happened. : P

But do know that through all these redesigns, I'm fighting for better lore too--not just lore that's better because it has solid gameplay (and thus a solid character) to back up, but because through this cohesion, lore that is seamlessly implemented into gameplay as well. See the Kayle/Morgana, Nasus/Renekton, and Leona/Diana redesigns, for example (in terms of inter-champion conflict within the lore--these face-offs will always be intense because one party's advantages correlate to the other's weaknesses, making the stakes higher than ever), or stuff like Rengar doing what establishes them in the lore, in-game.

Nonetheless--I appreciate your feedback, but more importantly, I appreciate the grace you have in acknowledging that you might not be looking at these things like a game designer (which is what I try to do at all times--and what I am capable of through intimate knowledge of game design principles, be it the foundations or what Riot tries to make work for them with LoL), which very few of the people I've engaged in the past have decided to avoid. Which is understandable--saying "I don't understand this as well as you do" is a hard thing to do!

(I also expect a bit of backlash here saying "WELL YOU'RE BASICALLY SAYING THAT YOU KNOW THIS STUFF BETTER THAN WE DO"--which isn't so much as something I'm saying, as much as it's a conclusion I've reached through careful analysis and supporting evidence. One primary difference between me and the average forumgoer, is that when I make points, I'm more than capable of backing them up with established game design principles or quotes from the Rioters themselves--and do so frequently.)


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Archadion

Senior Member

03-17-2013

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Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
No offense - by no means am I trying to sound condescending or hostile with the following, just going to just be as clear and bland as possible:

The well famous 'READ LORE NOOB' argument.

If you are saying people should read the lore of every champion before they actually understand why things work why things work, you are giving people homework instead of creating a design everyone gets the purpose of when looking at it in an instant.

Let me include a Red quote to back me up:



Understanding why Mordekaiser is so confusing requires us to read his lore - it's Burden of Knowledge and hurts the readability of his character and thus the accesability and structural integrity of the game.

Also Sion - you expect to be chopped into pieces but ends up magically stunning you and magically shielding himself, which doesn't have anything to do with 'Undead Warrior' as his theme. What happens? He's lore dependant aka 'less readable' aka 'burden of knowledge' - this is the single line in his lore that makes up for these weird abilities in his kit:

'Sion's reanimation actually bestowed new powers on him and increased the potency of his existing abilities, making him even more of a terror to behold on the battlefield.'

The sentence doesn't make Sion more awesome or contribute to his personality or character as a whole, it's purely there to justify the fact he has some weird unreadable stuff in his kit you wouldn't expect him to have.

Hence with the Redesign we've said it's just better to make it as readable as possible and thus get rid of the entire current lore-dependance of Karma - making her readable right from an instant as all of her abilities would work towards the goal of 'karma' or 'what goes around comes around'

Like Darius and what IronStylus says himself - nobody's forcing you to read the lore of Darius in order to understand how he works, right from the get-go you get he's going to be smashing and beating people up with that axe and that's what he's all about.
While I agree that people shouldn't have to read lore to know why a champion's abilities are what they are. However, I'm unsure what you're arguing for or against? If you're just disagreeing with Exile, then sure. But if you're saying her kit should be about karma, then I've got to disagree. Karma is just her name. Zed's ability set doesn't have anything to do with letters, and Twitch doesn't involve muscle spasms. Graves isn't a gravedigger, Yorick is, and I'm pretty sure Poppy doesn't have any flowers.

Karma's old appearance was about balance, so you'd expect abilities with choices between offense and defense. Her new appearance just shows her to have a lot of internal power; the glowing patterns on her arms and legs show very clearly that she's got power inside her, but her stance has her holding it perfectly well. It isn't someone who has huge amounts of power and struggles to control it, stooping over and holding on to their arm to try and 'hold in' the energy. No, Karma is standing tall and proud. She has power inside her and she is in control of it. That tells you quite a bit about her playstyle.


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Lithillya

Junior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Unless something changes, her old lore will remain canon. She may have a new bio, but it doesn't replace the old one- it's a new chapter. We want to be able to tell stories about our champions. Replacing existing stories is not done lightly.
When I first saw the announcement that Karma would be remade, I was worried that you'd completely change her lore, like you did with Soraka - a change I felt made the character bland and boring, much different than the tragic story she had before, one forged in a bloody war.
Then, I read this, and I no longer have to worry, for that, I'd just like to say thank you. Thank you for keeping her old lore, it's always been one of my favorites, and I'm so very, very happy to see it stay.

As many others, I'll also miss her fans, but in my opinion, keeping her old lore was far more important, so I can live with her new, fanless look.


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Whyumai

Senior Member

03-17-2013

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Originally Posted by Lithillya View Post
When I first saw the announcement that Karma would be remade, I was worried that you'd completely change her lore, like you did with Soraka - a change I felt made the character bland and boring, much different than the tragic story she had before, one forged in a bloody war.
Then, I read this, and I no longer have to worry, for that, I'd just like to say thank you. Thank you for keeping her old lore, it's always been one of my favorites, and I'm so very, very happy to see it stay.

As many others, I'll also miss her fans, but in my opinion, keeping her old lore was far more important, so I can live with her new, fanless look.
I think the idea of her being a standard bearer rather than using fans is probably more inline with the idea of her being a inspirational leader of her people.

I would like to see a champion with fans sometime in the future though. I think there's room for a fan based champion.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archadion View Post
While I agree that people shouldn't have to read lore to know why a champion's abilities are what they are. However, I'm unsure what you're arguing for or against? If you're just disagreeing with Exile, then sure. But if you're saying her kit should be about karma, then I've got to disagree. Karma is just her name. Zed's ability set doesn't have anything to do with letters, and Twitch doesn't involve muscle spasms. Graves isn't a gravedigger, Yorick is, and I'm pretty sure Poppy doesn't have any flowers.

Karma's old appearance was about balance, so you'd expect abilities with choices between offense and defense. Her new appearance just shows her to have a lot of internal power; the glowing patterns on her arms and legs show very clearly that she's got power inside her, but her stance has her holding it perfectly well. It isn't someone who has huge amounts of power and struggles to control it, stooping over and holding on to their arm to try and 'hold in' the energy. No, Karma is standing tall and proud. She has power inside her and she is in control of it. That tells you quite a bit about her playstyle.
My point being: Readability is one of Riot's standards when it comes to making a champion design, readability is narrowly associated with theme and thus the readability suffers the more abstract the theme is.

If her theme right now is 'tension and momentum' (eventhough completely different themes are written all over her new visual look) it isn't readable at all because there is not really something people can expect of because it's very very abstract.

Yet again - what is more readable, a playstyle that is about 'standing tall and proud' or a playstyle that shoves 'Karma' aka 'What goes around comes around' in your face.

'Standing tall and proud' is more vague and abstract, there are thousands of concepts/abilities that could fit this theme, while the main point of 'Karma' as a theme is redirecting any harm done as that is what 'karma' is commonly accepted to mean.

---

Second point, as I've said earlier: The point of reworking a champion isn't 'making the champion completely like the old version just slightly different' - what I am trying to say is:

Just because you interpret her as a character that had little to do with 'karma' as a theme in the first place doesn't mean it shouldn't have been her main focus now. (please note I even agreed with you on this part, previously 'karma' was barely represented and only inner flame as her passive did that'

Riot's intention is to make a character that's thematically tied through visual appearance and playstyle. (something that isn't done now because her visual rework screams 'yin-yang', 'spiritualism' and all of the sudden gets a playstyle that has to do with 'tension and momentum'

My point being:

The current rework isn't tied thematically and thus is less readable because 'tension and momentum' is a very weird abstract theme to build a playstyle around, especially if the visual appearance is misleading in terms of having way other themes than the actual playstyle.

The Redesign is tied thematically because all of the themes that are incorperated in her visual rework are also converted into gameplay, thus being more readable, while providing plently of counterplay.

Currently, Riot's Skarma-kit is a kit that is just there for it's functionality, it mashes well together - the point is it just doesn't fit with Karma.

The Redesign I feel lives up to all aspects: Flowing kit, thematic design, readable design, counterplay whereas Riot's rework falls short on readability and thematic aspects.


It's not just only a matter of opinion I like the Redesign better than Riot's current rework, it lives up more to their own standards which can be broken down into science and solid analysis.

Do you understand what I'm trying to say? It's not just that I like the entire fact of having a playstyle that revolves around 'karma', it's a fact it's the most readable way and thus fits Riot's criteria of the importance of readability the best way it can be.


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Healurownbum

Senior Member

03-17-2013

I cant wait to see how she is on the PBE, what i currently see i dislike in all honesty. But maybe if i try it, it might not be so bad....

And damn i feel bad for the reds the 19th how u guys are alrdy talking abt it there going to have a hard time


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Whyumai

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Healurownbum View Post
I cant wait to see how she is on the PBE, what i currently see i dislike in all honesty. But maybe if i try it, it might not be so bad....

And damn i feel bad for the reds the 19th how u guys are alrdy talking abt it there going to have a hard time
Really depends on whether the new Karma is on PBE before the AMA.

If Karma is on the PBE then it's entirely pointless to have the AMA.

To be honest I don't really get what we are going to be told during the AMA that hasn't already been answered and more importantly what can be conveyed better in an AMA than what can be found out from PBE testing.

Assuming Riot actually implements changes based on this PBE testing .....

I wonder how much of the AMA will actually be about Karma. I suspect there might be a movement to shift it to discussing other topics.


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Dobyk

Member

03-17-2013

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Originally Posted by Whyumai View Post
Harass and Zoning are a very small part of being a support. It's important early game but not so important later on (which is good since supports tend not to scale without AP enough to deal much damage with pokes).

Karma still can't peel and now cannot heal her ADC. I don't agree that these changes adds that much flexibility. There's only one mantra charge so in actual fact you are more limited in your choices than you are with Karma now.

I can't see how Soulflare could be consider any real form of initiation. Poke, sure. Initiation? No. While I agree that she has choices (and she currently has choices btw) it's just that those choices aren't actually supportive in nature. Soulflare deals damage and slows. That's not really supportive. It's about as supportive as Nidalee's Spear.

Focused Resolve isn't actually that supportive at all. It cannot be cast on allies (as far as I can work out) so its entirely a damage spell (which can heal only Karma if cast with mantra). Furthermore it's a root if you keep them tethered long enough. It's damage. There's no slow. There is no haste. The root is delayed. It's not good for support. Fine for damage just like Leblanc's ethereal chains are. Not good for support though. You need that peel now not after your ADC is dead.

Inspire is really the only supportive ability left. It's a shield and a haste. It's an AoE shield with haste (with mantra). That's good. No complaints there. But it uses all your mantra charges (since you only have one now).

As for Karma having more harass now? It's hard to say. Karma already has decent harass with her shield and AoE Q. While Karma probably is dealing more damage (she has three reliable damage spells - if you use mantra on her E). Hard to know if she's got more harass or not. From the sounds of her wave clear involving using Mantra, I think she might be dealing less damage, perhaps. Who knows?

Anyway, supportive wise I feel she'll be weaker. No heal, only one real supportive ability and a delayed root won't help her be any better as a support.

Time will tell for sure. 'Till then, remember that Lux can double shield her whole team, instant root, AoE slow, and has an ultimate. The only thing this new karma seems to have is that she can self-heal and a haste. Not a good spot to be in. I can't see how you would want to play the new Karma over Lux as a support.

I think the experience of Lulu would be quite close to the new support Karma. I don't understand why people underestimate slows.... Lulu excels at slowing enemies, and she is a support. Lux's singularity EITHER slows or damages, to maximize the slowing effect you might actually miss the enemy. Karma's Soulflare delivers the damage and the slow at the same time. Lux's shield is incredibly weak, even when doubled, and there is no way for her to actively support the team. Karma's shield would probably be stronger (as it already is) and will haste as well. Sure, Lux can snare much more reliantly than Karma, I will give you that, but then again I think this is a matter of positioning, timing and skill, not of whether it is delayed or instant. There are only two drawbacks to new support Karma - no stun and no sustain. Let's say that sustain is not really that essential, since half the supports dont have heals, STUN (as well as knockback) is the main reason why supports are strong in late game. No support can harass or zone late game, and heals MAY be clutch heals at best, nothing more. The real power of most supports comes from hard CC. This is the only serious drawback of the new support Karma (and in fact, the old support Karma as well) that can only be overcome through skill and timing.

P.S. From my experience with Lux support, if she can't transition from support to AP in late game, her ultimate becomes pretty, pretty useless against tanky champs with high MR (inclusing the enemy adc who will already have proper MR). Lux's ultimate is scary when she is AP carry, but kind of useless in late game for support Lux....... With Karma this is avoided because the empowered spells have decent supportive/CC capabilities