So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
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Renamawn

Junior Member

03-16-2013

I love playing Karma, her beginning game isn't crazy awesome, but her late game is amazing. her shield is awesome even without mantra. (you usually get yelled at if you mantra shield and taking adc kill :P) her tether speed is amazing as well, you can cast it right after it end so its an unending tether that helps your adc move around the map very quickly. The AoE heal was amazing too, sure soraka and alistar have a better heal but its not an aoe, we cant even heal anyone anymore. thats what really makes me sad.

her new tether is basicly the same as LeBlanc (way to be different there) AoE damage is a pretty cool addition, and her AoE shield is pretty neat too. this update seems to take away her supporting ability (looks like another mage in the league, what else is new) we need more support options. all you see in ranked matches are Nunu and Taric with a thresh here and there since he's new.

Seems like she is going to be another lux and morgana. Mainly a mage for soloing mid but has a shield so we can count her as a support...even though no one plays them as a support.

new skin looks pretty neat though


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Mirror

Senior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Quite frankly, having a kit that encourages you to be a low health to be more effective is both counter intuitive and troll-ish.

There are a few cases where it has worked (Olaf/Tryn) but only because of how limited they are by their melee nature. A ranged caster (a squishy concept) isn't the right place for that kind of mechanic. I appreciate how much you care, but that's not a great expenditure of our design and player-education dollars.
For me, the reverse-execute design of her heal and just the flavor of the passive sold the "Karma" idea more than their actual practicality as dive-bait.

The disappointment isn't that she can't whip out a Needlessly Large Rod (*wink wink*) at 30% health anymore, it's that, as I think Scarizard mentioned, there's nothing 'karmatic' about her anymore. With her current art direction, she should be renamed Storm, or Jubilee. She looks way more superhero than diplomat, and nothing about her kit says 'turning the tide' or 'maintaining balance' at all.


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Renamawn

Junior Member

03-16-2013

Should have just made a new champion instead of messing with Karma (would have been better than the idea of zac)


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Melancholy Exile

Senior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by The5lacker View Post
It also offers an interesting gameplay dynamic. Old Karma had this a lot, especially top-lane. By creatively playing with opponent's expectations of her strength, Karma could easily lure opponents into traps, which offers a degree of counter-play. I thought that was a goal of Riot. To offer interesting choices for all players to make. Right now, Karma doesn't actually have any choices attached to her, at least not for opponents. Do you get out of tether range? YES. Do you dodge her skillshots so she can't reduce the cooldown on her Mantra? YES. While this new Karma is straightforwards, she's TOO straightforwards, and while her kit isn't bad, her old passive was basically the one thing you guys should've kept.
Forgive me but how does her current passive “[offer] a degree of counter-play”?

I think I understand what you’re trying to get across here – that her passive encourages her to take risks – but what counter-play is there to a character who gets stronger as they lose health? The only explicit counters are healing reduction, which has no effect on her shield, hard CC or silences and sheer burst damage to kill her before she’s able to take advantage of the benefits. The ‘counter-play’ to her current passive is to simply deny her it entirely, not anything that actually works around it.

A similar thing came up recently when Xypherous was discussing Garen. One change they tested for his passive was making him gain bonus health regen relative to his missing health, but this created the problem that players were punished for trading with him and were actually best suited to avoid any engagement where they couldn’t kill him outright. Making characters gain power as they’re weakened can work when the character is putting themselves at great risk to benefit but Karma’s nature is that she wants to bait people into suicidal engagements. If you trade evenly with Karma: You actually play into her hands, thus encouraging you to avoid doing so unless you can be sure of the kill – something her shield/heal combo makes inherently difficult.

The current Karma doesn’t provide any “interesting choices” for opponents either, she simply punishes them for misjudging how powerful she is when on low health.

Guess what: Avoiding new Karma’s skillshots is a great example of counter-play because you’re denying her damage and preventing her from lowering her Mantra’s cooldown. It’s hardly an original thought, as you’d obviously look to do that anyway, but it encourages you to play more conservatively against her or pick characters who can fight her from a safe distance.


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JewThunder

Junior Member

03-16-2013

i really want to play with her new abilities...


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tenthousandshado

Junior Member

03-16-2013

she seems really great now but now i hope for a new champ that fights with fans


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Quite frankly, having a kit that encourages you to be a low health to be more effective is both counter intuitive and troll-ish.

There are a few cases where it has worked (Olaf/Tryn) but only because of how limited they are by their melee nature. A ranged caster (a squishy concept) isn't the right place for that kind of mechanic. I appreciate how much you care, but that's not a great expenditure of our design and player-education dollars.
I would hardly say it has to do with the difference between being a melee champion and a caster, but rather, the difference between having the ability to function and thrive at low health and not.

It works for Olaf and Tryndamere because in Olaf's case, that increased attackspeed plays off of his built-in lifesteal to allow him to become tougher to kill while at low health (as long as he's attacking), and in Tryndamere's case, because he has that handy period of unkillability.

It didn't work for the initial iteration of Karma, because it was implemented in a way that wasn't supported by the rest of her kit. While she was encouraged to get to lower HP, what was waiting for her there? A % missing HP heal on a half-ultimate cooldown and a shield that is better used on an ally--hardly grounds to support that level of high-risk, high-reward play.

Such a mechanic isn't impossible to incorporate onto a caster-type champion, but it does require that the rest of the kit supports being at low health. It's not something that can't or shouldn't be done--it's just a problem you haven't found a solution to yet. (A possible solution, would be a kit that revolves around punishing enemy aggression--in this context, the more-AP-at-critical-health mechanic isn't so much about baiting, but punishing enemies for bringing you to low health. Since taking the heat and burning back hotter is what the kit's all about, Inner Flame isn't so out-of-place--and coincidentally, such a playstyle would embody "karma" quite nicely)


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The5lacker

Senior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melancholy Exile View Post
Forgive me but how does her current passive “[offer] a degree of counter-play”?

I think I understand what you’re trying to get across here – that her passive encourages her to take risks – but what counter-play is there to a character who gets stronger as they lose health? The only explicit counters are healing reduction, which has no effect on her shield, hard CC or silences and sheer burst damage to kill her before she’s able to take advantage of the benefits. The ‘counter-play’ to her current passive is to simply deny her it entirely, not anything that actually works around it.

A similar thing came up recently when Xypherous was discussing Garen. One change they tested for his passive was making him gain bonus health regen relative to his missing health, but this created the problem that players were punished for trading with him and were actually best suited to avoid any engagement where they couldn’t kill him outright. Making characters gain power as they’re weakened can work when the character is putting themselves at great risk to benefit but Karma’s nature is that she wants to bait people into suicidal engagements. If you trade evenly with Karma: You actually play into her hands, thus encouraging you to avoid doing so unless you can be sure of the kill – something her shield/heal combo makes inherently difficult.

The current Karma doesn’t provide any “interesting choices” for opponents either, she simply punishes them for misjudging how powerful she is when on low health.

Guess what: Avoiding new Karma’s skillshots is a great example of counter-play because you’re denying her damage and preventing her from lowering her Mantra’s cooldown. It’s hardly an original thought, as you’d obviously look to do that anyway, but it encourages you to play more conservatively against her or pick characters who can fight her from a safe distance.
Players have a choice. Either attempt to take out a low Karma with a second burst, or stay back and simply harass her out of lane. Karma's bonus AP only really mattered when enemies attempted to commit to a fight: Despite her AP bonus, her ranges are low and she can very easily be out-harassed, and shields don't last long. A Karma could quite easily be brought to the point of being unable to shield herself adequately when an opponent does decide to commit to killing her, but on the flipside, committing too early often earned you a face full of bursty shields and fan blades.

Dodging a skillshot is NOT counterplay. That's like saying "Not dying" is counterplay. Or really, "Not ACTIVELY HELPING the enemy" is counterplay.


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MercTroop

Senior Member

03-16-2013

I like the way Karma looks now, over her old skin design. Things that I wish the new Karma retained are her war fans, and her butterflies. Her war fans gave her a iconic look that was distinct from other champions.

As for her kit.

New passive is iffy for me, I liked her old passive. If Karma survived a team fight with low health her abilities could become real nasty.

I really want Karma fans to come back to react off her Q. It was one of my favorite heals to use in the game since it was a skill shot, if tether can be turned into a heal like i describe below it won't be missed.

Changes to to Karma W seem ok, but I'd like to see a little more. Like the ability to heal allies by using it on them. When Karma uses her Mantra it makes this ability better but also instantly refreshes it. So Karma can put out two tethers or more on allies or enemies.

New Karma shield seems good for her E. Although I'd rather take one strong shield over multiple weaker shields.

For Karma R I really want her to have some kind of passive ability that kicks in if all your mantras are on passive. Or build into her passive ability to hold more than two mantra charges.

Lore wise, I haven't paid close attention to lore since I feel WW lore got butchered.


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ZakumKnight

Junior Member

03-16-2013

@Scarizard

Is there any chance that tethering to an ally will now heal you and said ally?