So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SirLapse View Post
@ Gone
The fact that you played for the theme was nice, but the lore was what represented her theme, not necessarily the skills (although the skill names can relate). Your way of trying to relate skill use to the theme itself is ineffective, the playstyle for many of the champs in the game are based around archtypes such as Support, and since a meta is already in place, it has to change in order to combat that.
Sorry dude but you are wrong for saying that - playstyle/abilities have to do with theme- just because the mechanics of the abilities will eventually determine the role of the the kit doesn't mean abilities/kits are always designed in a way to or fit theme, or fit a role, you can use them in harmony to create a thematically unified character that is still viable and excells at a certain role within the game.

Ashe theme: Frost archer - she is one and her entire kit revolves around it - still she's an ADC.

Brand theme: Pyromancer or 'Fire Mage' - his entire kit works like that thematically - he's still an AP carry.

Olaf theme: Berzerker: His entire kis works like that thematically - he's still a bruiser/tank.

I could go on and on and do this for the vast majority of champions - Karma can perfectly represent her theme through abilities and still work like a support or mage.

Also the entire 'READ LORE NOOB' argument could be considered to be burden of knowledge - as you are basically saying 'im giving you homework as you are required to read the lore before you understand/know the theme of a champion.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-16-2013

Hey guys, I'm Bestbilbo and people might know me of the 'Are Champions As Awesome As They Could Be Thread' - I'm also known to be working together with a guy called 'ItemsGuy'

Now this is our proposal for Karma (please give feedback!), but before I show you our version of Karma, let's analyze her as a character and her current visual appearance.


Quote:
In her new default - the following is present in her visual design all extremely characteristic to her new theme she is obviously supposed to reflect:

-Taijitu

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Taijitu - it's basically another word for Yin and Yang - the green glowing dragons that are visually present on her new default skin represent Yin and Yang and dragons are commonly used to represent the symbol of Yin and Yang.

-Eastern-style tattoos (dragon)

-Glowing

And over-all the entire dress and the fact they show more of her skin gives a bigger indication and representation of how the character is influenced.

The weight of the spiritual stuff in the new one is the huge floating yin-yang
Everything else just helps tie Karma to it visually.

Taijitu is green and glowing? Karma is green and glowing. It shows that there is some supernatural "energy" to her, which can then be associated with "spiritual energy" due to the visual ties to the taijitu.
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They've incoperated the three following themes in her visual appearance:

Karma
Yin-Yang
Spiritualism

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I hope that you are already understanding what I'm getting at - Ashe has the theme 'frost archer' so she looks like an archer with a frost bow and plays like one, Olaf's theme is 'berzerker' so he totally looks like one and thus plays like one, Brand's theme is 'fire' or 'firemage' so he looks like one and plays like one, Rengar is a hunter/predatorso he looks like one and plays like one, Z.A.C's theme is 'blob-guy' so he looks like an actual blob and plays like one.

We can safely say that especially with default skins of champions they try to capture the core essence of what the champion is supposed to reflect through visual appearance and through playstyle - it wouldn't make any sense if for example Brand looks how he looks but ends up spewing out water instead of fire, would it?

Now Karma's new default screams the following three themes: Karma, Yin-Yang and Spiritualism - it's extremely vague, abstract and not readable if she doesn't reflect those themes at all and ends up being a character that reflects a playstyle of 'tension' and 'momentum'.

In fact, it's pretty darn misleading and thus harder to understand which is what you want to avoid at all costs in a game that has over 100 characters.

The entire reason the community is upset about all of this because they've basically ripped Karma apart with her new kit, she is supposed to represent yin-yang, karma and spiritualism but ends up doing something else entirely with this new rework, hence all of the reactions: 'Hurr durr this ain't Karma anymore, this could entirely be a new champion!'

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That said - I hope you guys are interested in our suggestion/solution/version of Karma.

I present to you:


Karma, the Enlightened One - Redesign.

Quote:
Three aspects were focused on with this Redesign made by ItemsGuy:

Consistant theming with a heavier focus on 'Karma'

Readability: with the more focus on 'karma' as a theme the entire kit is extremely readable and players would know immediately what they are dealing with.

With her current kit you aren't really helping anything by saying the playstyle is about 'momentum' and 'tension' - it's way too abstract and vague and still requires people to read the tooltips and memorize her abilities/mechanics instead of immediately getting what she's all about from the get go.

With this Redesign you'd simply only have to say 'KARMA, BRO!' or 'WHAT GOES AROUND, COMES AROUND!' - as the entire playstyle revolves around punishing enemy aggression, as the entire kit automatically directly fires any harm done to allies back at the opponents who did the damage in the first place, something that is extremely characteristic and commonly known concerning 'karma'.

Counterplay.
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I assume you have lots of questions and perhaps even critique about what I've just presented to you and to the rest of the people in this thread, note that the most important part is that the champion is readable and is supposed to represent all of the themes that unify Karma as a character throughout her kit as well and not just only her visual appearance.

ItemsGuy will be here and would love to explain the thought-process behind all of his decisions and reasoning behind the making of this Redesign and answer any question thrown at him.

Sincerely,

Bilbo

EDIT: Please also don't take this as me just advertizing our work - were here and I've posted this because people look at this rework as a problem so I've posted this as I feel this is an indication of a rework that does reflect what Karma is supposed to reflect..

The current Karma rework we see as a problem due to all of the reasons mentioned above and the community screams a loud resounding 'NO!' because of that - this input of ours is a possible suggestion or solution, or at least an indication of how Karma could have been while still keeping every element of what she is supposed to represent, but being improved on compared to previous Karma because with this Redesign she's actually readable as every ability works to one common and graspable goal.

PS: What do you guys think about our Redesign? The goal was to make the entire playstyle revolve around 'karma' or 'what goes around, comes around' so she's a more readable and better representation of what Karma is supposed to be like compared to her actual current rework.


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gartho33

Junior Member

03-16-2013

@ SirLapse

this may be true.... but she is now no better than a bursty mage... support is no longer her tag any more than thresh or lux.... give her heal back and we have a support... not a moment sooner than that one will karma hold any of her now wonderus glory.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by gartho33 View Post
@ SirLapse

this may be true.... but she is now no better than a bursty mage... support is no longer her tag any more than thresh or lux.... give her heal back and we have a support... not a moment sooner than that one will karma hold any of her now wonderus glory.
The problem is - Lapse isn't really right and it's justified for you to say she's just a bursty mage because that's pretty much all there is - there is no essential thing her kit does that is characteristic to Karma, to be completely honest, just like you say, this new rework is a design that just has abilities slapped onto her - like this 'she's just another mage' whereas she could have been 'this is Karma'


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FaeryWishPrince

Junior Member

03-16-2013

I've always loved Karma and I have to support the idea of Riot changing her passive. If she were to keep her old passive as it is think about it. Karma at level 18 gets up to 130 AP being at low health. Her new Mantras grant bonus damage to her Q and W, so if you decide to play her mid, it forces you to buy AP items instead of just sitting back on her passive and laughing into the night when you do finally build AP items. Final thought, I love both versions of Karma but will miss her fans.


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Subutexania

Junior Member

03-16-2013

Although I understand why this was done to karma...or so I think (General feeling towards attempting her the first time and lack there of while lack of a role), I strenuously object to this rework. I am really beginning to fear Riot is becoming the new Blizzard (release an awesome game, build it to an astounding level of entertainment, then slowly through balancing attempts and catering to the less consistent players...ruin it).
Honestly yes karma needed some changes but the ones you have chosen are just depressing. By directly changing her originally intended style to create a new clone of other characters(with a slight twist) you have destroyed her individuality. I already have a Leblanc as well as other similar champions for these kinds of play styles.
To make my point more clear, please for once do the right thing. Offer Free Refunds both through IP or RP depending on which means was originally used within the first week after the rework. Give us a chance to try her new style and if she by no longer fills the need we sought her for when initially purchased, let us forget somewhat forget the damage done.
If I purchase another character only to discover two weeks later that you are reworking/ruining them I will see no reason to ever purchase RP again. Think about it, One Mantra...was 2 too hard to keep and adjust accordingly. Give us the refund to buy a different Champion if you are going to steal the ones we love away, torture them and return them to us with multiple champion disorder.


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Eight of Clubs

Junior Member

03-16-2013

I could not be more disappointed with these changes; I loved the old karma from her old style look to every single spell she possessed. Her game mechanic was unlike any other champion in the league and that is I what I loved about her. Riot is making these inaccurate changes to karma based on ill preserved notions built around her misleading game history, and a misunderstanding of her spell and skill set.
In order to explain my rational argument I need to go back and explain a few details from the past. Prior to season 3 karma was considered by many to be the worst champion in the game. This has some truth behind it. In Season 2 game play was quite different for the game role support (and as such had a direct effect on karma). For those of you who can recall, the position of support had the tremendous responsibility for buying and placing wards for the entire team. This was incredibly difficult to do, based on the high cost of wards and lack of any field funds (aka having to give all the minions to the adc or risk losing). As such, described in the patch 3 overview, the majority of supports had to buy gold generating items and most builds looked something along the lines of “They go Heart of Gold, Philosophers Stone and then if they are lucky Aegis of the Legion or like Zekes Herald or something” (Joshua “Jatt” Leesman). This was very grueling for karma because she is extremely item dependent. Unlike other supports like Taric, Sona, Leona, Janna, Lux, Blitzcrank and Alistar who all have built in abilities that stun or disable an enemy champion, making them effective at any level (as a stun is just as effective at level 1 as it is at level 18). Karma was only as useful as the strength of her shield, heals, and the cool down on her mantra, if any of these spells fell behind mid game she became in essence useless. Without the ability power to save or protect her team she was nothing more than a body in the field.
When all seemed lost for this champion a glimmer of hope shed its self over the horizon, as season 3 alterations changed everything. With the introduction of sight stones and removal of Heart of Gold Karma became more advantageous than I ever would have thought possible. Now with the playing field leveled Karma could still buy all the wards she needed while still stacking her cool down, ability power and survivability. These changes have allowed Karma to push into the fray with her teammates without fear, knowing that the use of her spells with mantra can be the deciding factor in a team fight. Unfortunately Riot has not given people enough time to discover this, critically changing her only after 4 months of renewed game play which is still focused on her old past reviews instead of her current style of performance.
While reading the forms discussing karmas upcoming changings I found several logical fallacies. The first of which is“…her all-purpose abilities are so broad they never felt like the right choice in any situation. All in all, Karma lacked direction.” (Scarizard, Associate Lead Designer). Karma has a clear direction, to forgo her own safety and protect her team (the one true quality that makes a leader). Karma’s kit is misunderstood and as such these accusations are false. Karma has only 3 spells, I am not going to describe them because you can read about them in your summer profile, however I will go over how to use them effectively and why each gives karma a blatant style of diction. Her “Q” is a magnificent cone spell that heals off the percent of missing health from her allies. This makes it vital that she stands directly next to her entire team so she can heal all of them with one mantra, so she needs to be in the middle of the fray. Her “E” spell with mantra is a damage dealing shield which is great for placing on a tank when he initiates e.g. malphite, hecarim, and Jarvan IV or casting it on the carry to protect him. This spell has a very short cast range for a shield so karma needs to needs to be in the middle of the fray so the radius can reach the front and back line when needed. Her final spell “W” is either a slow against line jumpers like Kha Ziz, Nocturne and Xin Zhao from reaching the adc, or speed buff used on champions to initiate or retreat. As stated before the cast range is minimal so she needs to be in the middle of the fray so the radius can reach the front and back line. All in all I think Karmas direction is obvious, stand in the middle of the team, for united we stand and divided we fall, a true support.
The next logical fallacy is one I am shocked to discuss. It is stated “Why isn’t Karma fun” and “The changes we made to Karma’s kit focused on making each decision fun” (Scarizard, Associate Lead Designer). Last time I checked riot was not the one how gets to constitute what is fun and what’s not. Karma is exceedingly enjoyable to play especial her spirit bond. There is nothing like telling to your team to get in a line and casting it on everyone and flying to the other side of the map at break neck speeds. Besides that I cannot count the number of times I have saved someone with karmas heal or soul shield from an ignite and the broad smile that sweeps across my face ever time. But these moments of joy are almost at an end.
I know I’m probably going to get a lot of dislikes for this discussion, but they will probably be from players who have never played karma, this is because from their standpoint, they see this as a new chance to play a brand new champion. However this explanation was not written for them, it was written for all the current karma players who put their time and faith in a champion overlooked by others and shunned by competitive play. Please for all the people who played karma I beseech you and everyone else who took their time to read my reasoning to “thumb up” this elucidation so Riot will see the mistake they are making…..and hope for beyond hope that they will change karma back into the great champion she once was.
Otherwise March 19th 2013 will be the day I remember as “the day riot killed its 1st champion”
Sincerely Eight of Clubs


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Gen Nakazora

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Senior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SirLapse View Post
@ Gen
No offense, the Twitch redeux worked perfectly fine for me.Sivir still tosses my **** as Nocturne and Eve players seem happy. Also, the heal was only available during Mantra in the first place. No difference there except that you can't heal the team. Refer to my post about the skills and it'd literally cover all of that.
Then you sir, deserve respect for the Twitch. Not many can still play him.
Sivir, as i said, was neither a success or failure. Your saying 'Still' somewhat proves that.
Eve, people are happy, but people who used to play Eve have mixed feelings. I played old Eve, and I can play new Eve. I love both. Not everyone shares that opinion. She became more popular. Ok. People who liked her before though, they are kicked to the curb, cause 'change is good.' Eve now has an entirely different style. Its for better or worse, but I still put her as a success with 'mixed opinion.'
As for Karma's skill not changing, I'll call you out on that one. She lost quite a bit, and though she gained some in return, she still is not the same. Karma's true potential was in keeping everyone alive, while fending off enemies. Now, she does only the second with all but her shield, which, as I had said, I have no qualms with.
The heal only being on mantra may be true, but now her area damage is only on mantra, so you replaced it with a single target slow poke. Could be wrong on this, since the wording leaves it open, but it seems that way.
Her W is now only offensive, and only single target. So it leaves her more open. It also no longer slows, so its easier to get out of than Leblanc's. The heal to herself... just promotes the 'I am in it for me' feel, since it offers nothing to allies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SirLapse View Post
The major problem with your entire argument is that her skills should be both beneficial and hurtful. CC is always helpful for the team, and that's exactly what Q and W do. They don't have to directly affect your teammates, which your argument seems to almost avoid as a possibility.
I won't deny, CC helps. Karma may not of had much of it, but she could support her allies better with more helpful things for the team. Plus, again, the loss of slow on W makes the possible snare harder to pull off. If they get out of it, or you get pounced and killed while using it, there is no CC. Where as the old W could slow the entire team, and speed up Karma to have a chance to avoid ambush. I say chance here, not a guaranteed escape. It was still easy to break before too. Now... it may be easier. And if they increase the range, then the enemy is far from the team and snared. Giving time for the snare to wear off. Not going to deny your points, but I don't think you are entirely right.


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FrozenMistninja

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Member

03-16-2013

If you want riot To Keep the FANS! In some form or another, taunt, joke, recall, dance, revival then please keep posting. Riot doesnt understand that the FANS she holds are a symbol of all of the old Karma Players! Because we are The FANS. If you are in the cult of Karma DieHards, then lets get keep letting Riot know! Riot has a very nice history of helping us out when we let them know what we want! Keep the fans in some form Riot, we supported what many called an unfinished champion for 2 years, so please make this sacrifice for us and show us you support the minority of us as well!


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Arushni

Senior Member

03-16-2013

Has it been stated whether or not that traditional skin will be exclusive for players who already own her, or will the option to purchase it still be there if you don't have her?