So, about that Karma leak...

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Originally Posted by Bes7iA View Post
To any red:

such a big change should bring big changes
karma is now more in control and has more power than before (she looks like that) what would that means to her people, where she would take ionia, are their enemies aware of her "upgrade", what would they do about it,

such a big change should change the entire leage of legends lore, well not change it, but it should bring a new era

a more powerfull champion is on the horizon, this has to mean new things will happen

-a new war
-a new battlefield (pls)
-a new way to resolve problems
-a new threat
-a new hope

will this power "enlighten" all ionia?
will karma take ionia to a new more powerfull position?
will this ionia posible treat be carefully watched?

pick anything you like but such a radical change to a champion should bring radical changes to the entire leage,

then i would feel that karma wasnt changed, but getting prepared for something instead.
They make champions like every few weeks, why would they add more every time

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When is heimerdinger's rework?

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Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Let me apologize for the fact I have used 'accusations' and I'll keep saying 'opinions'

I'm still asking to break my post down however - this like the most important one that isn't subjective at all, or atleast it's logical, where an overwhelming majority would probably agree with that and approve of that as a plausible way of thinking:

Overwhelming majority has acknowledged to find the theme of previous Karma to be weird and unreadable or no real central or graspable theme at all.

The fact that there can be a lot of debate about the theme in the first place is already an indication it's way too weird and abstract. Are we going to argue Olaf's theme isn't 'berserker', are we going to argue Ashe's theme isn't 'Frost archer'? We aren't because they are blatantly obvious.

It's no problem you yet again don't want to accept the hard truth, now I'm not going to ask you to accept the fact at that the theme was weird and unreadable regardless of what you got out of her eventhough I would like to, I'm going to ask you that you atleast understand the theme can be way more readable than her previous and - thus majorly improving on readability as a whole in the process, which is what Riot has done completely with Karma so far, hitting the nail right on the head in terms of living up to 'Spiritualist'.


What I'm asking you, bro, don't dissapear just like Yago, it makes you look weak.

Answer that and I'm happy to tell you why it isn't subjective that her new default characteristically represents her new theme better than the traditional skin.
But you see, you're still going by the ridiculous assumption that I said/thought her previous design was perfect and very readable. I NEVER said that. I said like a hundred times in this thread that I UNDERSTAND WHY RIOT FELT THE NEED TO REWORK HER. I said I WANTED THE REWORK MYSELF AND I ASKED FOR IT MANY TIMES IN THE PAST I thought HER OLD DESIGN WAS FLAWED AND HARD TO READ FOR MOST/SOME PLAYERS AND IT DEFINITELY NEEDED TO BE REFINED.

And you IGNORED every single time I said that, again making me sound in your replies like I was just crying for old Karma back. It's incredibly disrespectful, especially coming from someone who demands a word-by-word deconstruction and reply to every single one of their posts. Do you even read mine? Or are you going to just read my nickname and automatically assume "whiny karma fan who thought she was perfect and didn't need a rework" and formulate your reply accordingly?

Old Karma was a mix of themes. I personally don't think that's a problem, but you and the people at Riot clearly do. And I understand that. Does the new skin reflect her "new theme" better? Maybe. Again, matter of opinions. Do I like the "new theme"? No.

"Spiritualist" was definitely a theme in old Karma, but not one of the major ones in my eyes. When I thought "Karma" I didn't immediately think "spiritualist", I first thought "classy matronly diplomat", "magical fans" and "duality". So, as someone who loved the old Karma, I obviously disagree with the choice of the base theme for the rework. And I think choosing ONLY that theme without at least adding a REFERENCE to her previous themes (fan recall animation being a pretty good example) is a bad idea because it excludes everyone who liked her/noticed her for other themes and reasons other than "spiritualist" or "paragon of Ionia".

And, speaking of opinions, I personally think her previous/traditional design still very much expresses the themes "spiritualist" and "paragon of Ionia". Her entire color scheme was based around the Taijitu you so love to mention, as opposed to a small Taijitu shaped arrangement of green jade dragons on her new "Ionian standard". Is "Taijitu" really readable from this design? I don't think so. I had trouble even noticing they were arranged in a Yin Yang shape at first glance, while the previous color scheme of her entire dress, fans and accessories was definitely more readable for me.
And her Ionian Mantle of Decorum, and the Ionian crest colors in her accessories definitely screamed "Ionia" to me. When I started playing, even without knowing either of their lores, or even knowing that they were both supposed to represent the same region, I immediately made the connection with Irelia when I saw Karma's design and especially her Mantle of Decorum.

And hey, every opinion on the matter is highly subjective. You can't decide how my brain is supposed to work and what connections it's supposed to make, what themes it's supposed to see in a certain design. And the same goes for you. It's just opinions and personal points of view. Saying that you're right because the majority agrees with you, or classifying your words as "hard, absolute truths" won't make them any less subjective, I'm sorry.

Oh, and rereading your post. What are you talking about? Since when is "Taijitu" associated with "green and glowing"? I'm sorry, but I've always thought this was the most common representation. Never even seen a "green and glowing" version of it before. And look at it, same colors as her old default and her new traditional skin.

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Since we've gone 4 days without a Red Post I'll assume it has died down for the most part, but I'd like to just say:

RiotAmes, you're one of the few Red Posters that I've read and actually come to respect as someone who seems to have a 'human' response and mindset about changes and community interaction. Not to discredit the other Reds but with how often they post, and the frequency of repetition statements (Morello for example, can be quoted and no one will know what the post he made was about, or when he made it, but it can fit most threads), it's good to see someone still concerned about lore and player opinion.

I feel a lot of the heart and soul for a game is lost when lore and aesthetic content is set aside onto the back burner in favor of content development designed to, for lack of better or not-bastard sounding terminology, entice fans and draw more monetary attention. I recently quit WoW just because of how the lore aspect was crippled by the gating that tied it up (in addition to numerous other misgivings but that's another story).

So, thanks for giving me some faith back in the Riot team. I still want whoever came up with Tribunal (or the team who did) to step forward and be publicly flogged.

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Since we're not getting any more updates on this for now, I wonder how close Karma is to being released on PBE.

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Originally Posted by Dark Blade Yago View Post
If I make a bright rainbow and unicorns video game, it obviously isn't going to appeal to someone who is all dark and emo. Because they cannot relate to it or get into it, because it does not appeal to them, it isn't really accessible to them. RTS games really aren't very accessible to some players, because they don't appeal to them.
Misusing words now.

RTS games aren't going to appeal to let's say people that only like to play in First Person mode.

RTS games aren't highly accesable because the controls and basic core elements of the game (micro and macro) are extremely hard to get used to and learn, take a lot of hours and a lot of dedication and investment to handle (steep learning curve).

Yet again you are pretending accesability = appeal

Accesability =/= appeal.

Even if the game is intuitive and fun, it just isn't the same. This is especially true of skill cap in games. A game with a low skill ceiling is not going to appeal or be accessible to someone looking for something higher.
Get rid of the word 'accesible' there and you got an entire portion of words that makes sense.

However, I get the feeling you don't know the difference between skill ceiling and skill floor.

League has a low skill floor, high skill ceiling (it is accesabile, you can jump right into it because the mechanics and controls are pretty noobfriendly yet the game has tons of potential and depth that you can immense amounts of stuff eventually getting better and more skilled at the game, this is skill ceiling).

RTS games tend to have extremely high skill floors right off the bat regardless of their skill ceiling.

It is a fact that games with low skill floors tend to attract way more players because it's more accesable, there is less of a learning curve that is asked off the player right off the bat hence more people, especially casuals can jump into the game immediately and have a great time without actually investing a lot of time to 'learn' and do research about the game.

In theory they could enjoy it, but it just won't be enjoyable for them because it doesn't appeal to them, the game doesn't offer to what they are looking for*. Something can not appeal a player because of a player's mentality. This is why appeal is all about appeal*

Let's say you hate League of Legends - does it appeal to you? No.

Does it change the accesability of the game? Not at all - IF you would install and play the game the game would be as accesable as it always ways, it's still going to be as easy to jump into as it was.

Let's say a new player jumping into League thinks the game is hard to learn and play right off the bat on a scaling from 1 to 10 and rates League of Legends with a '5'

Let's say that a new player jumping into DotA2 rates the game with a '8'

Now let's say that player likes the more darky art and visual style of DotA and dislikes the cartoony style of League, which games appeals more to the player?

Exactly, DotA2.

Does this change the accesability of League of Legends? No, League of Legends doesn't change as a game just because the player chose to play DotA2 over League. Lol.

Yes, you say abstract themes are more difficult to interpret, but this doesn't justify her as being as unreadable as she is.

The current one is at least readable if you make some connections to Yin Yang and read her lore. I don't see how yours would be readable even with lore help. A moving standard is one of the most silly design concepts that I've ever seen. Almost as hysterically awful as that Fiddlesticks rework... Oh, and those are opinions there in that last sentence, subjective, so I don't need to justify them and I don't intend to.
'I am going to point out these flaws of the designs without actually give my reasoning, I guess this is very effective to do so and is pretty relevant for the both of us'

Yeah - I can also state that children in Africa are starving, it isn't helping anything. Especially since people can make wild accusations that I'm wrong because I don't actually provide evidence of photos that children are actually starving, notice the similarities?

You removed Anivia's wall becuase it's less realistic than a human mage casting it.

We've removed Anivia's wall first of all because it takes the room of one of her abilities on her kit and since it's not characteristic at all for a bird to be casting that wall instantly (hey thank you for finally getting back at one of my points and actually confirming what I was saying as it is perfectly logical!) - thus making Anivia less like Anivia.

It's like replacing current pillar of flame with the backflip ability of Quinn - if you give Brand a backflip ability, it takes the spot of an ability that could've been replaced with an ability where he actually casts fire which is what you want to do, he's a freakin' fire mage!

So not only is it not characteristic to her

You complain about Graves' smokescreen because normal guns don't fire smokescreens.
I complain because it is in no way characteristic to a shotgun to fire a smokescreen, especially since there is no smoke canister visually present on the gun, making even less sense.

Very rarely do I immediately look at something and immediately know everything about it. Being able to do so wouldn't neccesarrily make things better, either.
It's weird that Riot has stated 39854235 times previously they like to think otherwise, hence Ironstylus's comment about Sion and Mordekaiser.

Part of the fun of playing is figuring out what a character can do.
'I like the fact that some design are less readable yet I'm refusing to accept that Riot has set up certain criteria concerning readability and that has been the entire reason the fans of Karma have been removed, now I am blatanly pointing out that everyone likes to figure out what a character can do even if it doesnt make sense and require unneccesary memorization that doesn't really have to do with the game'

Accesability, overwhelming majority doesn't like the fact that stuff doesn't make sense - hence Ironstylus post about Sion and Mordekaiser you didn't respond to either.

Sure, I might not immediately see Graves can fire that smokescreen, but once he does it it makes a lot of sense, actually, sort of like grenade launcher.
'If it aint broke dont fix it, yes it somewhat makes sense lets just keep it like it is'

It can be more readable, no reason to not make it more readable.

He's already undead. Killing him and having him get back up is a lot more misleading than Anivia's. Consider how when Anivia dies she turns into an egg. Immediately you can tell you can target the egg. How would you show this with Sion? It'd be more strange to experience the first time.
Corpse slowly rising from the ground rising back on his feet, see it one time, never forget.

How is the Sion's Cryptic Gaze ability readable? Why does an undead guy have some sort of petrifying gaze, is he Medusa now?
The ability (CONFIRMED BY ACTUAL RIOT'ERS ON THESE FORUMS) was supposed to represent feeling the fear of this undead character.

Thus here it really serves like a fear if you look this undead in the eyes, you get feared.

How, from a gameplay perspective is this readable? I'd have to have prior knowledge about how the ability works to know how facing him affects the ability.
Happens one time, never forget. Should be quite noticable that some do get feared and some don't quickly translating to 'heck I shouldn't look this scary undead in the eyes or I'll get feared' - on top of that the entire ability would be tied to visuals, the eyes slowly glowing more and having obvious visual effects/particles.

Butchery is still a rather difficult ability to read. He isn't a vampire, he's an undead warrior. Lifestealing usually isn't a big undead brute's thing.
Not his entire theme is about being an undead. He's an undead dude with a huge axe - axes are for chopping.
And for him, it's not about quickly chopping things with two light axes like Olaf, it's about chopping things into pieces

Sion is made of two things: "undead guy" and "huge battleaxe"

In the redesign, he's "undead guy" with his Innate, and well, pretty much everything except his snare
Snare is the axe part, aside from other parts that incorporate his axe because he's doing damage with it, so his E and also his R

But there's more focus on the "undead" aspect because that's what separates him from Darius

So Darius is pretty much 100% axe because that's all he's got going for him, while Sion has the addition of "undead guy"

Reworked Anivia's abilities visually are coherent, but from a gameplay perspective they're difficult to read. They are complicated in their interaction, and it puts a huge amount of learning curve to playing against her, and playing as her. This is often a sign of bad design.
So you are saying the visuals make sense but the gameplay is complicated and therefore is a bad design.

Last time I checked Orianna was supposed to have a 'Ballerina' theme yet she ends up being a robot with extremely complicated mechanics that don't mechanically represent ballet in any way, just the fact she does a quick pirouette when casting E as a particle/animation, not as a mechanics.

Weird, Orianna's visuals don't make sense - gameplay's complicated and doesn't make sense neither.

Anivia's visuals do make sense - gameplay's complicated yet is friendly to the eye because all of the visuals work and correspondent characteristically to what she is doing.

Orianna good design, Redesign Anivia bad?

Not sure, contradicting yourself, perhaps.

As far as the stacks goes--yes, they slow more, again the slow is not the problem. Would you know immediately, from being slowed, that Anivia can detonate those stacks on you? No. There is no way to know that without looking it up. You could read the tool-tip of the debuff, but, again, this constitutes looking it up.
One time, never forget.

Imagine the situation Anivia constantly adds stacks, you visibly notice RIGHT OFF THE BAT you are getting slowed more and more and then suddenly you hear the immense bang of the stacks detonating, suddenly you are released of every movement impairing effect.

Is pretty readable how and why that happens - to be honest.

It isn't an accusation without backing up claims. The current iteration of Anivia is readable, fun, and thematic.
Fun - Subjective.

Thematic - only her passive (you are wrong for saying any other abilities fits thematically, just because it is ice doesn't mean its characteristically fitting to an ice phoenix, lol)

Readable - 4/4 abilities don't match the theme, how is this readable, how does this mash well with the visual appearance of the character? It doesn't.

You reworked her to make her more thematic, which is essentially violating "if it isn't broke don't fix it".
Which is making her a more thematic and therefore readable character, therefore more accesable and therefore more friendly to the game over all, working as an intended indication that if a design is already successful it doesn't mean it shouldn't be improved on aka 'if it aint broke dont fit it'

For the sake of already good thematics,

In a video game, you change perfectly good gameplay? And keep in mind, I'm a lore and theme junkie, and I still say it feels unncesarry. Her new kit is complicated, see above.
Her new kit isn't complicated in terms of skill floor, it has way more depth, there is way more you can do with the kit compared to the old one.

You liked high skillcaps, right?

Magical shifting battle standard that also reflects damage is apparently readable whilst in game.
Huge visibly battle standard with huge visible yin-yang symbol in it is very much readable and should quickly be associated with 'oh lord everything this standard is on please dont attack, it'll screw us over, cause KARMA'

I'm not intending to assert that you weren't trying to achieve fun. I'm just saying that you seem to be focusing more upon the thematics than the actual gameplay of it.
Darius, Olaf, Brand, even their redesigns have characteristic mechanics fitting to theme while not being that much different from their actual gameplay.

It's weird - I like to think ItemsGuy is a good designer, it'd be stupid to think if he did not pay attention to actual gameplay - it's not like he's working on a mod right now to show people!

Your reworked Karma's abilities on paper may be readable and thematic and fun, but in game it'd be complicated and confusing.
Riot has stated in this thread her fans were screwing over her readability and made her more confusing and complicated and limited of what Karma could potentially mean as a spiritualist.

Huge standard with visibly present yin-yang that reflects damage to targets where-ever the standard is on is not readable? Not sure what you are trying to prove here - it has been shoved in your face by Riot themselves that the fans were less readable and here you stand telling me isn't the other way around.

Your Anivia would be hard to play against becuase of the learning curve required for what she does.
Which is not much different to current Anivia.

Passive - got to learn this things has a cooldown of what is it, 4 minutes and makes her an egg you have to kill again.

Q- something that slows or stuns you depending on where it has exploded.

W- Wall of ice you must understand you can't break and can completely be gamebreaking in the jungle as it can completely block a path off

E- oh yeah, Q, R apply stacks of something and this spell will do double damage if that stack is applied to you.

R- Channeled spell you can interrupt, also applies the stacks for double damage on E.

Sounds pretty complicated to me - not a whole lot different than the Redesign.

I'm fairly Aspergetic so it's rather difficult to have to try and explain what I meant when referring to the professionalism and vague. Tone is difficult. Morello talks with an air of "you're on the right track". It feels as though you guys read into this too much and overestimate how much they like your reworks. I don't feel like actually linking because it's unnecesarry.
Yet there have been posts here and there that have been spot on and PRESICELY say what we say, thus backing up our claims not with a weird or vague tone, not even the 'youre on the right track' attitude or tone involved.

Yet again, you think it's unneccesary - probably because there is none.

Step off, seriously, and get over yourself. I have a life. Sorry I can't immediately set aside the time to respond to you. I'll get to it when I get to it, personal attacks are unneeded, and furthermore, I am not obligated to respond to you. Realize this. If you choose to invest time, then that is your choice, and it is not my problem if you waste it because I have no obligation to respond.
No problem, I know now you don't randomly take off - people have done that before, pretty much Harry ignoring the post on page 256 where ItemsGuy dropped a bomb of a post why rework karma visually represent her character better than old Karma.

I could cite all day, and it would still prove nothing to you.
There have been a lot of people previously that have helped us and proved us wrong, that actually took effort into proving us wrong by backing up their claims instead of investing their time in spewing out arguments without actually providing a solution, proof, or evidence.

These people we are extremely grateful for and generally are more kind because instead of trying to talk us down, throwing wild accusations, they look how they can help us and how they can find a possible flaw that can be improved on or has to be looked at entirely because it doesn't meet a certain standard in terms of readability, counterplay or theme.


If you guys are so sound in your design capabilities, then go make your own game. I'll watch.
We're not giving up on Riot as we feel they shouldn't be giving up on us, as long as they don't tells us right in our face they don't want or need us or don't agree with what we are trying to do, we'll be here. There still are a lot of unanswered questions.

Also, I like how both you AND ItemsGuy have behaved unethically on numerous occasions. ItemsGuy blatantly misquoted me and attempted to portray me in a negative light, and you keep attacking and trying to goad me.

Not of course that I haven't gotten snide with you. Though I feel it's well deserved considering your undeserved arrogance.
You've misunderstood quite a few things here and there as well - by no means does this justifies our behavior, whether were talking our behavior or yours.

The toxic part however, from your side, is the fact that you just admitted you don't take me as seriously as I take you and completely live with the fact that you like to spew out arguments built on no actual evidence and even like to continue to talk me down without even covering every single counterargument whereas I do respond to every single argument you give me.

That's low by standards, in my opinion, you know, equally threating people? Otherwise you are welcome to just tell me 'I'm not going to be as you are instead I'll be throwing out wild accusations and just quote your entire post all the time GL HF' and I'd know what I'd be up to right off the bat.

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Holy quote war Batman!

This is why forums are ugly places.

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What does this have to do with Karma?

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