So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Healurownbum View Post
Was that ment as offensive as it looked? Cause damn dude i can have my hopes.
I don't think it was meant offensive or hostile, I just think he was being bland not sugarcoating anything, I think he meant to speak 'the hard truth' - you can dream, but he was being realistic.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

LiftsLikeGaston

Senior Member

03-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
I don't think it was meant offensive or hostile, I just think he was being bland not sugarcoating anything, I think he meant to speak 'the hard truth' - you can dream, but he was being realistic.
This.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryOrunitia View Post
.
By the way, should there be any reason why I should think I shouldn't be responding to your posts because you've chickened out to respond to ItemsGuy's fairly short post dedicated to you back on page 256, I'm fairly sure you didn't get back at that one, either intentionally or unintentionally but I find it suspicious.

If it was unintentionally, I'm sorry for my accusations that you might have avoided it intentionally, yet I invite you to read it and respond to that, I guess it hits the nail right on the head with what I've posted to you on the previous page of this thread - you know, ItemGuy's post pointing out the difference between what is subjective and isn't subjective in this discussion between us and you.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Yago Xiten

Senior Member

03-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryOrunitia View Post
I have the feeling that's what you'll just keep saying, no matter whether we actually back up our arguments or not.

Plus, that's a pretty hostile statement for someone who said he wanted to drop the hostile tones in this conversation.
Oh neat quote button so I don't have to say it. Thanks HarryOrunitia!

@BestBilbo, no I'm not going to hit the quote button for that wall of text it'd be so cluttered.

You tell me I've confused Burden of Knowledge and Learning Curve. I'm well aware of the distinction. They can be equivalent. We were discussing and you brought Meepo into it because of Burden of Knowledge. So I don't see why you say I'm the one who confused the two.

Meepo is complex because he is designed for a player who can handle him. He is complex with that idea in mind. I'm well aware appeal and accessibility do not equate. But they do tie in with each other.

In the Karma rework you guys did, the learning curve is a burden of knowledge. There is no reason, even with the theme of 'what comes around goes around' needs to revolve around a moving standard that somehow reflects damage. It's even less readable than the current iteration of Karma.

As for Anivia's redesign, Rebirth triggers when she activates it, not on death.
(Oh, and Sion having Anivia's original passive to rise up again is a bit confusing, IMO. He's already undead. Being double-undead and getting up again is odd.) This is a bit less readable than the current iteration. Also, it's not that it's hard to make the connection that Ice slows. I have no problem with this. I am referring to the gameplay mechanic of the stacks, and the ice crystals. It's very unreadable from a gameplay perspective what is going on. Her kit, and indeed many of the kits of you guys' redesigns are vastly complicated for no real reason. You call Meepo complex for the sake of complex...tch, look at some of those redesigns from a critical perspective. Especially the Karma one. The Karma rework is incredibly unreadable.

And a quick note on Lissandra inheriting Crystalize--too much counterplay can be bad. If every single ability had the level of counter-play behind it as that wall, the game would be so unnecessarily complicated.

Also you guys place far too much significance upon thematics. First and foremost, it's a game. It should be fun, and it should be playable. You seem to have forgotten about that, creating unnecessarily complicated abilities and reworking some of the better designed characters in LoL essentially because they aren't what you envisioned.

You can use Riot's criteria all you want--they've said you've had good points but from what I read they haven't exactly agreed with you as much as you seem to think. Most of their answers are professional and relatively vague.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

HarryOrunitia

Senior Member

03-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
It looks extremely hostile when just looking at that single sentence - yep, but I hope that anyone who reads my post and I hope that Dark Yoga can see for himself if my intentions are to sound hostile over there.



Theme, Readability, Counterplay. That's what a champion needs to live up to, all of the things you loved about Karma and you feel that are missing on her right now were blurring down her readability and theme yet you are refusing to accept the hard truth that they were blurring down her readability and theme, watering her down as a character and the quality of the rework as a whole.

Grumphy Monkey was so kind to explain why they've made these decisions and how they've jumped to these conclusions, yet after that you are still wondering why they've done what they've done.

This is exactly what has happend between me and you so far, you've given your opinion about what you liked about old karma and the fact that you really miss them on her current design - which is entirely subjective, no backing up your points.

Grumphy Monkey, ItemsGuy and I have given explanations why they have made these decisions and why there were extremely neccesary so Karma could live up to theme and readability better - this is not subjective, this has been backing up our claims both from Riot and us.

Subjective load of me and itemsguy and Riot: We like to think a character that is themed more consistantly and is more readable makes a better champion.
You can't decide what is subjective and what isn't. You can't decide what qualifies as backing up a point and what doesn't. No matter how hard we try to explain why we liked Karma's previous design, why we don't agree that it's unreadable to the point of deserving to be completely deleted, what we think could be good solutions to improve her readability while still keeping a few touches for the old fans, you'll still say that we aren't backing up our points simply because you don't agree with us. And that's just rude. There is a big difference between agreeing on a concept and understanding a concept.

This is exactly the problem I have with you and ItemsGuy: I have no trouble presenting my opinions as subjective opinions, yet you seem to think your opinions are undeniable facts, and if we happen to disagree with them, we are dumb and we don't understand and we don't back up our arguments. But that's not true. It's not that we don't understand what you or Riot are saying, it's just that we happen to disagree. You can say Karma's design was unreadable, you can present it as an objective fact, but I say no, it's subjective, because there are many people in this thread who actually had no problems reading Karma's concept and theme. You can say "but no because Riot said it was unreadable because of this and that", and I can say I understand what they are saying, but I still disagree, and I still think the type of rework they did was way too drastic and goes way over a simple upgrade on "readability".

Until you understand that every statement in this thread is subjective, and that means yours included, there really is no point in trying to have a civil discussion with you, because no matter what we say we'd still get the same answer: "yeah whatever you are wrong because your opinion is subjective and mine isn't".

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Yeah - I assume they will only be adding animations to make her more like old karma, in terms of adding fans to her recall animation or something like that.
Which is what I'm asking for. Yet you're still trying to make me sound like "omg waah cancel the rework and give me old karma bacckkkk _"


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Healurownbum

Senior Member

03-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiftsLikeGaston View Post
This.
Ah ok And yea i figured as much just the thread itself seems to be come abit more hostile in my eyes. And i just rly pray to god they dont **** up the skills lol


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Yago Xiten

Senior Member

03-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryOrunitia View Post
You can't decide what is subjective and what isn't. You can't decide what qualifies as backing up a point and what doesn't. No matter how hard we try to explain why we liked Karma's previous design, why we don't agree that it's unreadable to the point of deserving to be completely deleted, what we think could be good solutions to improve her readability while still keeping a few touches for the old fans, you'll still say that we aren't backing up our points simply because you don't agree with us. And that's just rude. There is a big difference between agreeing on a concept and understanding a concept.

This is exactly the problem I have with you and ItemsGuy: I have no trouble presenting my opinions as subjective opinions, yet you seem to think your opinions are undeniable facts, and if we happen to disagree with them, we are dumb and we don't understand and we don't back up our arguments. But that's not true. It's not that we don't understand what you or Riot are saying, it's just that we happen to disagree. You can say Karma's design was unreadable, you can present it as an objective fact, but I say no, it's subjective, because there are many people in this thread who actually had no problems reading Karma's concept and theme. You can say "but no because Riot said it was unreadable because of this and that", and I can say I understand what they are saying, but I still disagree, and I still think the type of rework they did was way too drastic and goes way over a simple upgrade on "readability".

Until you understand that every statement in this thread is subjective, and that means yours included, there really is no point in trying to have a civil discussion with you, because no matter what we say we'd still get the same answer: "yeah whatever you are wrong because your opinion is subjective and mine isn't".



Which is what I'm asking for. Yet you're still trying to make me sound like "omg waah cancel the rework and give me old karma bacckkkk _"
Well said.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Blade Yago View Post
@BestBilbo, no I'm not going to hit the quote button for that wall of text it'd be so cluttered
Would appreciate if you could still give and entire run-down of the entire two posts so I can easily distinguish what you do agree on and do not agree on, I have a hard time believing you've read all of it now especially when taking your response below into consideration. You'd do both of us a huge favor by still giving a rundown through both of my posts, just leave one or two words open of the quotes so I understand what 'paragraph' or argument you are responding to.

It's not that hard you know, no need to always copy an entire OP - to make it more organized for the dudes you are responding to, for yourself and for other readers it's better to just quote multiple times breaking down a post of someone into sections like we do, I hope you'll do the same.

Quote:
You tell me I've confused Burden of Knowledge and Learning Curve. I'm well aware of the distinction. They can be equivalent. We were discussing and you brought Meepo into it because of Burden of Knowledge. So I don't see why you say I'm the one who confused the two.

Meepo is complex because he is designed for a player who can handle him. He is complex with that idea in mind. I'm well aware appeal and accessibility do not equate. But they do tie in with each other.
Explain - how does accesability have anything to do with appeal?

Quote:
In the Karma rework you guys did, the learning curve is a burden of knowledge. There is no reason, even with the theme of 'what comes around goes around' needs to revolve around a moving standard that somehow reflects damage. It's even less readable than the current iteration of Karma.
In my post I've included an entire explanation to this how I mention her theme is abstract and therefore is always going to be less readable than other characters - yet I've compared the redesign with previous Karma, I invite you to break my two posts into little paragraphs/brackets so I can see a more detailled opinion of about what I've said there, you are saying something with this but you aren't giving a counterargumet to my point, you are like covering a very little part of the entire thing I've said about the redesigns's readability and the previous readability of Karma.

Quote:
As for Anivia's redesign, Rebirth triggers when she activates it, not on death.
Where you try to push realism too far.

Quote:
(Oh, and Sion having Anivia's original passive to rise up again is a bit confusing, IMO. He's already undead. Being double-undead and getting up again is odd.)
Weird, most of the people have said to find the Sion's Redesign to be spot-on, it's not entirely realistic but is completely readable according to theme, an undead that rises from the dead occasionally as tied with a cooldown, yeah.. not readable.

Quote:
This is a bit less readable than the current iteration. Also, it's not that it's hard to make the connection that Ice slows. I have no problem with this. I am referring to the gameplay mechanic of the stacks
The more hits, the more you get slowed - should be instantly noticable.

Quote:
and the ice crystals. It's very unreadable from a gameplay perspective what is going on.
Three crystals orbiting around her - damage on impact and flowing with the rest of her kit, visually seeing the crystals respond to Glacial Storm, actually 'firing off the crystals' - don't see how this doesn't make immediate sense.

Quote:
Her kit, and indeed many of the kits of you guys' redesigns are vastly complicated for no real reason.
Accusation without backing up your claims.

Quote:
You call Meepo complex for the sake of complex...tch, look at some of those redesigns from a critical perspective. Especially the Karma one. The Karma rework is incredibly unreadable.
One readable coherent theme that might be more abstract than themes like 'Warrior with Axe' but it has one common purpose 'Karma', so you can expect an entire playstyle around it or atleast get the core of it - whereas her previous theme 'magical fans' or whatever freakin' theme people thought she had already proves that her theme was extremely abstract and even more unreadable. You're welcome.

And a quick note on Lissandra inheriting Crystalize--too much counterplay can be bad. If every single ability had the level of counter-play behind it as that wall, the game would be so unnecessarily complicated.

Quote:
Also you guys place far too much significance upon thematics.
Like I said, up to Riot to decide whether they like to push proportions or not.

Quote:
First and foremost, it's a game. It should be fun
Morello thinks that the more thematically tied a champion it is, the more fun the champion is. Also, another accusation without backing up your claim that most of our redesigns are intended to not realize this is a game and shouldn't be... fun ?

Quote:
and it should be playable.
Accusation without backing up your claim that our redesigns wouldn't be playable.

Quote:
You seem to have forgotten about that, creating unnecessarily complicated abilities and reworking some of the better designed characters in LoL essentially because they aren't what you envisioned.

You can use Riot's criteria all you want--they've said you've had good points but from what I read they haven't exactly agreed with you as much as you seem to think.
Morello saying Syndra, Yorick, Graves, Zyra are easy wins and that they could've been immensely better, including toxic designs such as Vladimir, which he has a grudge against as well.

Morello admitting they tend to do too much in a design sometimes, the 'Varus' argument I've given aka 'not focusing on one graspable theme or goal to work towards to'

Morello admitting that if they'd rework Brand they'd do it more like ItemsGuy's suggestion and our way of working and admitting he is going to focus way more on theming on future releases.

There isn't anything vague about what Morello has posted in our previous thread - please link me to one if you feel someone is extremely vague where generally an overwhelming majority doesn't know what he's actually saying.

Yet again - using overgeneralization here, accusation without backing up your claim, spewing out that their responses tend to be professional and vague yet not including some posts where you feel that is exactly the case so we can't really jump to any conclusion? Nope - you haven't done that.

The quote where Ironstylus literally says how screwed up Mordekaiser and Sion are in terms of readability and the importance of readability is in general by the following sentence 'nowadays we want to create a fantasy where people can easily jump into' - would you consider that as a vague one that could be interpretted in various ways?

Give me a break.

Bestbilbo

EDIT: Despite the fact I'd consider all of this a complete utter waste of time with you if you don't actually respond to this - I'd still consider myself winning the argument however as not responding is the lamest thing you could possibly do.

I hope you don't chicken out, in fact I assume you are now responding to those previous two posts at you.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

HarryOrunitia

Senior Member

03-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
One readable coherent theme that might be more abstract than themes like 'Warrior with Axe' but it has one common purpose 'Karma', so you can expect an entire playstyle around it or atleast get the core of it - whereas her previous theme 'magical fans' or whatever freakin' theme people thought she had already proves that her theme was extremely abstract and even more unreadable. You're welcome.
I'm sorry, but again, my subjective opinion, her current kit is pretty damn clear to me if you think "Karma" should be her theme. She has an ability that heals your allies and damages your enemies at the same time, an ability that slows and damages your enemies while speeding you and your allies up, an ability that shields an ally while damaging enemies for the same amount, and a passive that makes you stronger the less health you have.

Oh, not to mention that it's completely pointless to talk about her kit now because we don't know anything about the official kit rework yet.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-15-2013

Making more sense with this post, thanks, perhaps we can jump to a conclusion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryOrunitia View Post
No matter how hard we try to explain why we liked Karma's previous design, why we don't agree that it's unreadable to the point of deserving to be completely deleted
Makes sense, like I said readability is able to be broken down into science yet it is entirely subjective of whether you like to push the readability as much as you can or not!

Quote:
what we think could be good solutions to improve her readability while still keeping a few touches for the old fans, you'll still say that we aren't backing up our points simply because you don't agree with us. And that's just rude. There is a big difference between agreeing on a concept and understanding a concept.
Then I think we haven't been on the same page all along - I just hope you can accept that her current design is more readable regardless of what solution you have of keeping the fans, just that your design is less readable hence they've left out the fans as a whole.

It's entirely subjective whether you want to sacrifice readability for keeping her fans or not - just note that we've been defending Riot and backing up our points of why it has been smart of them to not sacrifice that readability.

Also like I've said from the start, I understand why you're missing these elements, though I understand their decision making and how it makes a better character over all.

Quote:
This is exactly the problem I have with you and ItemsGuy: I have no trouble presenting my opinions as subjective opinions, yet you seem to think your opinions are undeniable facts, and if we happen to disagree with them, we are dumb and we don't understand and we don't back up our arguments.
Apologies, still don't think we are on the same page. I'd rate the accusation 'I THINK TRADITIONAL KARMA SKIN MATCHES HER THEME AS GOOD AS HER NEW DEFAULT SKIN DOES' an accusation without backing up your claim.

It's a fact the new default skin has more characteristic elements and visual aspects that capture the theme of 'spiritualist', characteristic element and visual aspects that are not visually present on the traditional karma skin.

The new default lives up to the theme 'spiritualist' better than the traditional skin - fact.

'I think Traditional Karma skin matches her theme well enough' - which is what you are saying, which is subjective, an opinion.

Quote:
But that's not true. It's not that we don't understand what you or Riot are saying, it's just that we happen to disagree.
That's fine but a few posts ago you have been telling me 'OMG you are saying the same thing Riot is saying yet you aren't giving us a real answer' - I like the difference here, as you are saying: I understand your reasoning I just don't think it's neccesary to be this visceral.

Quote:
You can say Karma's design was unreadable, you can present it as an objective fact, but I say no, it's subjective, because there are many people in this thread who actually had no problems reading Karma's concept and theme.
Cherry-picking and debating absolute truth, to an overwhelming majority on this earth raining means the process of water damp in cold air 'condescends' (have no idea what this is called in english) and turns into actual liquid, which is known as rain and thus drops from the sky.

Overwhelming majority is aware of the fact that the rain is there because the water damp in the cold air happend to turn the damp into drops of rain, yet some ancient cultures on this world might be entirely upset and say 'NO, **** OFF. THE RAIN IS HERE BECAUSE WE DID A RAIN DANCE'

Overwhelming majority has acknowledged to find the theme of previous Karma to be weird and unreadable or no real central or graspable theme at all.

The fact that there can be a lot of debate about the theme in the first place is already an indication it's way too weird and abstract. Are we going to argue Olaf's theme isn't 'berserker', are we going to argue Ashe's theme isn't 'Frost archer'? We aren't because they are blatantly obvious.

It's no probles you yet again don't want to accept the hard truth, now I'm not going to ask you to accept the fact at that the theme was weird and unreadable regardless of what you got out of her eventhough I would like to, I'm going to ask you that you atleast understand the theme can be way more readable than her previous and - thus majorly improving on readability as a whole in the process, which is what Riot has done completely with Karma so far, hitting the nail right on the head in terms of living up to 'Spiritualist'.

Quote:
You can say "but no because Riot said it was unreadable because of this and that", and I can say I understand what they are saying, but I still disagree, and I still think the type of rework they did was way too drastic and goes way over a simple upgrade on "readability"
I'm aware of the fact you want to make the quality of the content worse just because you want to keep stuff like those fans in there - you think it's too much, your opinion, no problem.

Quote:
Until you understand that every statement in this thread is subjective, and that means yours included, there really is no point in trying to have a civil discussion with you, because no matter what we say we'd still get the same answer: "yeah whatever you are wrong because your opinion is subjective and mine isn't".
With my previous post to you I've done that - I've said it isn't subjective to determine and compare readability, counterplay and consistent theming.

I've said it however is subjective how much you want to push proportions to live up to that theme and readability.

Conclusion? You don't like the pushed proportions, hence you are throwing out subjective statements based upon your opinion entirely.

We defend the reasoning and back up the claims through the decision making and thought process behind the Karma rework and the direction they have taken her - not subjective.

Subjective part: We do like the pushed proportions as we like to think the more consistantly themed a character is and the more readable a character is the better the design is as a whole.

Quote:
Which is what I'm asking for. Yet you're still trying to make me sound like "omg waah cancel the rework and give me old karma bacckkkk _"
I'm totally approving of fans returning to that recall animation if that's really gonna satisy people, but to be honest I think there could be something else instead that reflects and lays more emphasis on that new spiritualist theme she has gotten so new Karma can as much like New Karma as she can be while still having the opportunity to make a character that's entirely about using deadly fans in the first place.

You know Kyoshi warriors from Avatar?