Let's talk about Champ Select

First Riot Post
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FatedTitan

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Just a thought.

What about showing a player's W/L with each champ? You could go further and divide champs into certain roles they play and combie the W/L into different roles as well.

People always think they're the best until there is solid proof that they're wrong.


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Renaito Yuujou

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Senior Member

03-13-2013

Oh man, what an ugly topic...there's no way I'm reading through nearly 100 pages of walls of texts, sorry. So forgive me if I present some redundant ideas.

The problem I'm seeing here is one big, fat, massive case of overthinking things. I also think it's wrong to suggest that Riot hasn't done their part. I think Riot has been more than accommodating as far as this issue goes. And, on this issue, this is a community problem. The fault lies completely on the community, and the community is what needs fixing, not the system.

To that end, I think that there are a few things that, first, need to be reinforced. Number one: This is a team game. Anyone going into champ select with the notion that they are playing a single player game is simply wrong. Number two: Since this is not a single player game, a single person's enjoyment will always weigh less than the enjoyment of four other people. And number three: With the first two in mind, one should enter champ select with the knowledge that they may not get to do what they want.

In short, the answer is quite simply: Humility. The community needs to be educated on humility. Riot can do this; we have silly little "tips" at the beginning of each game (which I hate, by the way). I am sure there are other places that actual, helpful tips to resolve the champ select issue can be inserted. Say...when we're logging in? Delay us for about two seconds to flash us a helpful message, like: "A diverse team consisting of blah blah blah roles can better adapt to a wider variety of situations." Or: "Everyone gets to be at the top and bottom of champ select eventually; patience is rewarded." That said, I DO support pick order, HOWEVER, from my personal experience, I have given up roles that I want to people below me because of some reason or another. I think it would behoove the community to do away with "calling" forever and, instead, adopt a much more polite method of simply and calmly stating their preferred roles and possibly, but not necessarily, the roles they are weakest at. The system whereby a person can declare their preferred roles before a game seems like it would be best here, so long as everyone recognizes that a preference does not ensure that you will get that role.

As far as the whole "prisoner island" thing goes, I love the train of thought, just not the destination it has arrived at. I think that humanity is inherently evil. I'm evil, everybody reading this and their mothers are evil, and all of our progeny will be evil. This does not bother me. So, instead of trying to combat evil, why don't we give everybody a place to vent it? I have long suggested that there be a matchmaking tier below normal where wins and losses are not recorded and whose sole purpose is for people to screw around in. This queue would be for people who care less about winning than they do about whatever misguided intention they have. It would be a queue for the 5 support meta, the 5 jungler meta, the all bot AP meta, and so on and so forth. With this additional queue designed specifically for people who want to screw around, it would open normals up to be a legitimate practice field, and ranked will remain the field for competitiveness, and in normals and ranked should you do something which would normally be reserved for the less-than-normal queue, it will be more apparent and more readily reportable and punishable, rather than the ambiguity we have now as far as sabotaging one's team is concerned.


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Gakidou

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Junior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
...
These are some major problems with Champ Select that we’ve identified in our research. So what’s next? A lot of players have suggested the following:

1) Vote Kick | Players want the ability to vote kick toxic players from Champ Select.
2) WoW Dungeon Finder | Players want the ability to queue up for a particular role like “Healer” and “DPS” and placed into a Champ Select with a team
3) Prisoner’s Island | Players want matchmaking to pair toxic players with toxic players, and positive players with positive players.

What are some pros and cons to these ideas? Would they work for League?
WoW Dungeon Finder is the answer. I have felt passionately about this since I started playing Ranked. The lack of it is the reason I no longer play Ranked. It has nothing to do with ladder anxiety or anything like that -- I generally find myself laddering in SC2 or any of a number of other games in lieu of playing LoL ranked, and LoL is more my occasional, casual relaxation game. I play ARAMs and Dominion almost exclusively despite watching every major LoL tournament and absolutely loving the potential depth of play and strategy in Summoner's Rift. The only reason I don't play Ranked and won't is the lack of a role-based queuing system.

I cannot play Ranked, or even Normals, without being forced to play Jungle or Support. If you can go back far enough in my match history you can probably see this. Over and over again, Sona, Leona, Lee Sin. My two least favorite roles, over and over. If I'm early in the pick order, it's almost inevitable that someone wants ADC or mid and is obnoxious enough that if I don't give it to them, they're going to troll. If I'm lower in the pick order, no amount of asking, wheedling or begging gets me anything but Jungle or Support. I legitimately feel that the only way I'm ever going to get to play the roles I want is by becoming more aggressive, more obnoxious and less friendly/helpful. It's not worth it, I'd rather not play.

I've spent too much time thinking about this. There is No Downside to role based queuing except the implementation and testing time. I've preached it to the high heavens on reddit and anywhere else. The common objections I hear are all terrible:

1) It would drastically increase queue times, like for DPS in WoW. Yes, people who only queue for the 2-3 most popular roles would experience longer queue times. This is simply a function of how many people desire these roles -- right now this problem is the drama that unfolds in champion select, the most obnoxious person wins, or you get a troll. Some people would rather wait 20m to get a match as a top or mid (I am one). Others would have the option to pick less "desirable" roles and get faster queues. I would rather play no game than a game where I am forced into a particular role. Anyone who complains about this is essentially a "winner" (ie: louder, more assertive and aggressive) in the current system who doesn't want their easy access to their chosen role made slower. Truly good players who claim to "pick for the team" could simply choose all five roles, no problem, it's just like the current system for them. Those who wanted to could wait longer to get the role they want. Both parties win, instead of only one.

2) But, duh, people will just queue for support and go "top or I feed" and pick top. Yes, trolls exist, and Riot has created a system to deal with them -- the Tribunal. Simply recording pregame chat (which we sorely need anyway) and telling us which role everyone was chosen for would make it trivial for the Tribunal to punish lane trolls. Right now, their awful behavior in champion select can often go completely unpunished. That some people will abuse a system (until they get banned) is not really a problem, otherwise we wouldn't have a chat box.

3) The META bro, Riot can't like, force us to play according to their grand conspiracy. I wanna go trilane mid in solo Q. Solo Queue with pugs is not a place to try random strategies and shake up the meta. The other four people on your team share an expectation that you're queueing up to play a competitive game of league of legends. The same shared expectation that says "You can't build 6 MS items and run up mid trying to kill the first enemy you run into until you die" dictates roughly that there will be a guy in the jungle, two lanes with one guy in them, and one lane with two guys in them, one of whom will be doing most of the farming. If you want to try something off the wall, you don't get to selfishly force 4 random strangers to do it, you bring friends in a 5's game and try it.

4) So then what, everyone has to pick from the pool of 30-40 tournament viable champions or get reported then? This the best part, hell no! You signed up to play in a particular lane. Want to take AP tryn mid or Quinn top or whatever? Go for it, you'll face the same censure/lack thereof that you'd face with today's system (generally, if you do good a bunch of silence and if you do bad a bunch of vitriol and 3-4 reports).

Give the consumer/player choices and hold them accountable to them, it only makes sense. Team composition by Lord of the Flies favors the louder and more obnoxious people, it makes more mature, conciliatory people just give up in disgust. If not for the ARAM game mode, I probably would not be spending money on LoL today because the regular game modes are simply more of a chore than fun for me -- not because of the game, but because it's basically work. I have to play a particular role, and I have to either be dead silent or pretend to be happy about it lest I get reported. The only other option is to troll or dodge, and neither has ever been my style.

I've been taking **** for this opinion on various other forums for like a year now. I've been defending it and watching the problem continue. I'm so happy to see it finally being addressed in some fashion and I really, really hope that Riot comes up with a solution that can allow me to enjoy playing Ranked (or even Normals) again.


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Bloodrisen

Junior Member

03-13-2013

What about if you mouse over a summoner, you could see a mini profile of their stats? Like You can see that this person has played AP mid X times, etc, like in Lolking I can see a summoner's preferred role. The scenario could be like this with summoners A,B,C,D & E:

B: Top plz
C: Mid plz
A: Top plz
D: Adc
E: Jung
B: Since your second most role is support summoner A, can you go support this game?
A: Sure, I can go ahead and fill in that role.

This would be under the best of conditions, but still, the idea is that since players are afraid of their teammates abilities or inability at a role, knowing their amount of times played at a certain spot could prevent someone getting flamed for being put into a role they're not used to.


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spurzey

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Member

03-13-2013

1) I really like the idea of a vote kick, but i don't think it should be in normals because premades can abuse it verses solo queuers.

2) I fell mixed about role calling because its pretty much waiting for a support mostly.

3) I really hate the idea of toxic island because 2 negatives don't make a positive. 1 person having a bad day make champ select terrible, having 5 people have a bad day will never work.


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Relkinn

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Junior Member

03-13-2013

I don't play ranked because I don't like draft pick.
I don't like how long draft pick takes. So much down time and it only feels worse the lower down I am for picks.
I don't like Bans. I get that it adds a depths of strategy, but mostly only for premades where you want to ban specific counters to your own team comp. Otherwise it's hope the captain knows which flavors of the month to ban. Mostly banning just adds the risk that I won't get to play the champ I want to play.
I do enjoy seeing what the other team is picking before the game starts.

I've only read the red posts, and the quoted posts from this thread, so maybe I repeat some ideas.
My suggestions for champ select, with the new tier style of ranked play, is to add a new champ select style.
Basicly everyone picks at the same time, but you can see what the other team is doing, not just your own. There is no lock in button, instead a ready button you can unclick. The timer would be little bit longer then current normals.
Allowing a champion to be on both teams could go either way. Either it rewards speed and does first come first serve (the way it is against your own team on normals now) but opens you up to counter picks or just allow it and still see people change for counter picks.

This mode would keep the counter pick stratagies of draft and remove the risk of your favorite champ being banned.
You could combine this with the suggestion of lobbies being formed first with your own team, to comunicate roles. Then having the other team matched afterwards, letting your team adjust champs for counter play.

The problem with this mode, is eventually no one picks any champs until the last few seconds, so that the enemy team doesn't know what you're picking/can't counter pick. This isn't that bad, because it forces your own team to comunicate better.
The other problem is getting flamed for sticking with one champ if the other team picks a persived hard counter.
Overall I think this would be a much more dynamic and exciting picking style.
This would also make promotion matches stand out by having them stay draft pick.


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Harpa

Junior Member

03-13-2013

Seems like I'm late, but in the hopes that a Rioter sees this:

davin talked a lot about showing information about players. Personally, I'm a huge opponent of this. It causes people to be bullied into certain roles and champions. What if someone wants to learn a new role? Also, most played champs are often not representative of what they like to play currently. For example, my most played champ (on EUW) is Maokai, but that is solely because I spammed him non-stop in preseason to get to plat when it was impossible to lose with him. Ever since S3, he is not that strong anymore and I don't like playing him much, but I've had people pressure me to play him (because of lolking.net). Come to think of it, I don't play any of my top 3 most played champs anymore. I don't want to imagine what it would be like to try to switch roles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
Hm, this is a neat idea. I'd have to spend more time thinking it through, but this would diffuse responsibility instead of the entire team hinging heavily on how the Captain structures the draft. Because every team member has a voice in the draft, it might encourage players to feel more invested into their team composition.

Lots to consider with this idea.
A problem that I have with this is that certain people will have a disadvantage, as someone will have to ban the OP champs while others can ban according to personal preference. A single ban just doesn't seem fair.

A solution for this problem: Everyone has 3 votes for bans, meaning there's a ban phase and everyone bans like the captain does right now. At the end, votes are tallied and the champs with the most votes are banned. In the case of a draw, pick order decides what champ gets banned (the votes of the people higher in the pick order have more weight in a draw).


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Yaddar

Senior Member

03-13-2013

I have posted this idea before, and since this is THE thread to takl about champ selct, I hope I get some insight from riot.

--

What about a system where, before entering a queue, you list your THREE peffered places to go (not roles), then said roles are shown to your teammates at champ select... and this WOULDN'T affect Matchmaking in any way.

Why did I say "places to go" instead of "roles"? because roles change all the time, however there are only 4 goldstreams in the game. for 5 players, THAT DOESN'T CHANGE so the players end up with.

1.- a Solo laner (usually side laner, in our "normal" meta would be solo top)
2.- a mid Laner (usually solo, but can also be duo in "alternative" team comps)
3.- a duo laner (offensive) (usually bot, ranged AD carry in the current meta)
4.- a duo laner (deffeensive) (usually bot, support in the current meta)
5.- a jungler (even roamer, in old metagames)

having the players select 3 of these options could achieve some things.
1.- making players actually think about other roles
3.- takes away some of the pressure of "calling" quickly, as the preffered roles are already shown.
2.- by having them shown to everyone, it could hopefully encourage communication. (if 3 people selected mid as their 1st option, they can look at eveyone's 2nd and 3rd options and try to reach an easier agreement)

this lane callings are NOT restricted by metagame nor they affect matchmaking, thus a "Solo laner" (most commonly, TOP, according to today's standars) could be an AP, a Tank, a Brusier, an ADC, etc.

these lane callings can lead up to alternative combinations like

double mid

- mid lane
- mid lane
- solo laner
- solo laner
- jungle

or double top

- mid lane
- offensive duo lane (top)
- deffensie duo lane (top)
- side laner (bot)
- jungler

or kill lane bot

- mid laner
- solo lane (top)
- offensive duo lane (bot)
- offensive duo lane (bot)
- jungler

or no jungler, or the traditional meta we use today.



you guys have said you don't like to queue up for roles because the meta would be restricted, but its not about queueing up for a role (matchmaking would not be affected) nor the meta would be restricted (you are calling a place to go that either could fit into the current meta or not).. its about making people THINK about playing other roles and to ease the pressure of "calling" it quickly to let others know what you want

you are now by default letting all of your teammates the three roles you'd like to play (hopefully it coul help reduce the people going into ranked "only knowing how to play one role")

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skrubbythethird View Post
At the risk of making an idiotic suggestion... I had an idea I've been toying with.

What if it was made so that when you enter solo queu, you get matched up with four other people, but you aren't faced with a team. So, you get put with four other people, and are given more time to talk to each other and figure out roles, but you don't get matched with another team to do picks / bans until you have a "Ready Check" like they do for raids in WoW. So until everyone checks the "Ready" button, or a set amount of time has passed (Significantly longer than the ~2-3 minutes we have in queu atm) you're just in a lobby talking to your potential 4 teammates.
IMO this is a wonderful idea, specially for Ranked.. if you really see the team is not willing to cooperate, youjust don't hit the "ready check" button and you are back in queue with a ---light-- time penalty.

it could lead to a increased number of pre-dodges, but I think its worth it if you are able to TALK with your pottential teammates instead of just be thrown at the fray with them.


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TornHero

Junior Member

03-13-2013

For the meta game problem have a queue solo top solomid duo bot, duo bot support, jungle it doesn't matter if it ad or ap or what not just where everyone intends to go. Then have checkbox "break the meta" for people open to the idea of different strategies with random pick up players. Doesn't mean all games will be breaking the meta but you're open to the idea for a random game in between the usual grind.


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Fat of the Land

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Senior Member

03-13-2013

Auction draft.

During drafts (blind & customs wouldn't count) players would have 3-5 seconds for each draft position to claim them. Auction points would be spent or gained depending on the position claimed. For example,

First Pick -- Lose 2 points
Second Pick -- Lose 1 point
Third Pick -- No points gained or lost
Fourth Pick -- Gain 1 point
Fifth Pick -- Gain 2 points

There would be a reasonable cap, for arguments sake let's say 10, and everyone would start out with half that. Tiebreakers would be settled in order of the following preference:

1) the player with the highest number of auction points
2) the player that lost their most recent tiebreaker (including within the same draft)
3) the player with the lowest position in their previous draft
4) the player that least recently dodged any queue
5) If still tied, one player is chosen at random

If no one claims a position the system will follow the same tiebreaker order in automatic assignment. Also, dodging will result in an automatic 2 point deduction.

Now draft order can be strictly enforced as the de facto method of champion selection, and;

a) It doesn't enforce a specific meta
b) While it would increase the draft time slightly, it wouldn't increase queue times
c) Everyone gets a fair shot
d) It empowers players to dictate their selection priority
e) It avoids convoluted systems based on in game structure such as role and lane assignments

On a similar note I would also like to see a dynamic vote system (ie. votes could be changed during the process) for the ban phase with the higher draft positions having tiebreak status.