Let's talk about Champ Select

First Riot Post
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Extra Pistol

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Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
Role preference indicators are an interesting idea. Awhile back, kitae asked me if it we could try a few experiments where players enter Champ Select with some icons that showed their role priority (1st = Top, 2nd = Mid, etc) and see if that improved communication. The idea is compelling because it's a way for players to show their expectations heading into the lobby.

It certainly streamlines some of the communication currently required in a time pressured lobby.
This is my largest concern- alleviating the time pressure. Two propositions that are not mutually exclusive-

Proposition One:
  • Players may optionally add up to three tags when queuing in ranked
  • Type A tags are "I would like to X". These tags are Blue.
  • Type B tags are "I cannot X". These tags are Red.
  • X= the relevant champion store tags (not stealth, melee, ranged, recommended) as well as lanes (Top, Mid, Bottom, Jungle)
  • These are shown next to a player in champion select (see mockup attachment)
  • These do not influence who you matchmake with

TL;DR:
Three tags allows you to express any preference combination as far as lanes go. Can do anything but support? Red tag support. Want to play an assassin mid? Blue Assassin Blue Mid. It's flexible but still clear- not necessarily adhering to any META. With preferences already made clear, role deduction can begin and encompass the majority of chat.

Proposition Two:
  • Non-captains may right-click champions on the ban panel, presented with two options: "request" and "ban".
  • Suggested bans are highlighed with a red border, requested champions are highlighted blue.
  • A small number shows the number of times a ban has been suggested to indicate bans that multiple players agree with.

TL;DR:
Removes ambiguity of players that just say champ names at the ban phase I.E. "shyvana" = shyvana ban or do you want shyvana picked? In either case the wrong choice causes breakdowns in communication.

While they don't necessary address the external issues at hand (players having a bad day) it does alleviate issues in game, hasten communication, and allow for players to clearly voice what they are and are not comfortable with.


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CawkBeefSandwich

Senior Member

03-13-2013

This is probably elitist on my part and will be frowned upon by you guys, but having a specific set of requirements that need to be filled before allowing players to even play ranked would be my solution. That way if you're queuing up with the foreknowledge that your teammates are at least as good as whatever bar you set, it would cut down on the anxiety. A suggestion would be something like your provisional matches mixed with your tutorial. Force players to play a set amount of games, as each community defined role or in each lane, or force players to meet a specific set of requirements. Games played, games won, champions own, games played/won with specific roles (ADC, Support, Bruiser, Jungle, AP/Assassin Mid, etc).

If I queued up into ranked with the understanding that everyone I'm queuing up with has learned how to play every role and play those roles decently, it would cut back on tons of game related stress.

Obviously this is a very rough outline, and I have no idea how it would be implemented or to what degree. There's lots of room for improvement, either by community suggestions, or by Riot employees.

Think of playing ranked like interviewing for a job. You have to have a specific set of skills to get that job, right? Well if you're trying to get hired on as _______ and know ______ but not ______ and ______, you're gonna get shot down. Why should a game where your performance affects 9 other people be treated any differently?

Just a thought, anyway.


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Tyrant Tibbers

Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by davin View Post
The tricky part here is that unlike WoW's Dungeon Finder, we don't have a single way of playing the game. Dungeons in WoW are designed to pretty much fit the tank/dps/heal model.

So when you match people together, you'd need some way of pairing together players who have agreed on a particular strategy or want to play in a certain way. Otherwise you might end up with two people who queued as best-at-Mid, and unless they're fine playing Double Mid, you'd get some pretty similar behaviors going on.
with this you let people pick the lane they want to go to and the lat setup they would like to have (i want to go mid and i want the lane setup to b 1 top 1 jungle 1 mid 2 bot)
this lets people pick what they want to do and does not reinforce the meta.

also with this you are picking the team setup you will have however you have no control over the team that you will be facing so you could have the starndard while the enemy might have 5 mid


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Shad0wth3fall3n

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Senior Member

03-13-2013

@Lyte

Here are my thoughts on the matter:

I have personally been banned myself from raging. Now there are many times when I feel justified and others when I feel like I definitely deserved it. As of recently (after my front page reddit post), I have been doing EVERYTHING I can to stay positive. Positive thinking has such a huge influence on the game, but as you said, doesn't win the game or stop others from raging. In fact, many people rage because you are being polite. So firstly, we must develop a system that explains clearly to players what the code of conduct is. This is going beyond just champ select, and looking at the overall problem. The Summoner's Code is misquoted every game that someone rages. Ex:

"Pick order is more important than calling it. It's in the code, look it up."

Well the code doesn't clearly state one way or another. It says you should respect your other players, but at the same time, play to your best. Well those two things are contradictory. What if your best role is mid, but the person above you calls it? Which weighs out as the more important decision. Do you play your best to help carry your team to victory or do you submit to another role and lose your edge and confidence?

So with all that said, I look at your 3 primary options and assess them as such.

1: Vote Kick
Pros:
Allows players to kick a toxic player
Possibly offers a punishment for Pre-game text
Allows players to feel more in control of their game

Cons:
People could team up against you for not being toxic
After being kicked for possibly doing nothing wrong (much like false reports) you could get in trouble
Would lengthen Queue times massively because people could say "Kick this person or I afk/feed"


2:WoW Dungeon Finder
Pros:
Allows people to get the role they want
Decreases pregame fighting
Mixed with Matchmaking, it sets you up with the best team available for your level of skill and available roles
Increases positive push towards people choosing a role and sticking with it
My opinion the best option by FAR

Cons:
MASSIVELY increase queue time unless many people queue under each role


3: Prisoner's Island
Pros:
Keeps positive players with like players
Keeps toxic players out of positive thinking players games

Cons:
Could be used as a threat (I'll report you if you don't etc etc)
People who change their behavior may be stuck in this new "hell"


TL;DR

While these aren't all the pros and cons, these are the primary I see. I believe that the WoW matchmaking is the best choice, but I can only imagine how long the queues would be because of people not wanting to play certain roles. I believe that we should have an overall vote attached to the client so people of all regions, divisions, and player ability and maturity have the ability to vote.


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ninjagear

Senior Member

03-13-2013

you would have many less problems if u would just back pick order. its the simplest most viable solution.


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Easter Teemos

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Could a red address this solution: put in summoner code that pick order is more important than call order.

This way, there is no ambiguity, and would solve a lot of issues


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In1erlude

Junior Member

03-13-2013

The Dungeon system is a very good idea. why? People who are toxic should realize the error in their ways.
It doesn't have to be a dedicated server ONLY for them, but rather, toxic players are more likely to be paired up with toxic players.
I don't know how this idea would be worked on, but i really like the concept.


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PIXAZOMG

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Junior Member

03-13-2013

got a simple idea what if when you open League and log in. You receive a Welcome Pop-up. Something like Hi Welcome to PVP.NET How are you today? This pop-up could have some radio button like I'm feeling good, i'm feeling really good , i'm having a horrible day. When people select the 'Bad day choice' their ranked queue could be disabled ^^ Or when they try to queue another pop-up could pop-up :P saying something like : Are you in the best shape to play ranked today?

1) Vote kick could be nice but it would be alot better if only Honorable player could start vote kick something like ESEA vote kick ( people with alot of karma can start vote kick)
2) Dungeon wow , well this would force the META
3) Toxic player being queue with toxic player that would be perfect.


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ThaddeusMike

Senior Member

03-13-2013

I missed out on the part of this thread where the reds posted, but I have a few points I would like to make anyway. I am talking mainly about ranked. I rarely play normals, and pick mode alters the specific challenges to be met.

1) Davin alluded to this, but how much meta-enforcing does dungeonfinder actually do? I submit it doesn't enforce much. At least for ranked queues, it is highly unlikely that you will see a double jungle or similar. On the contrary, the chances that you will see an assassin mid or bruiser mid are high enough that, at least in my experience, they need to be accounted for. It doesn't seem to me that dungeon-finder actually enforces meta any more strongly than we the playerbase currently do.
1a) Is it worth it to role out dungeon-finder for ranked queues only? As someone who rarely plays SR normals except in groups of 3 or more, I strongly favor it even if only limited to that sphere, but I remember going up through the levels in blind pick well enough to know that some action is necessary there. However, it is worth considering if approaches need to be tailored to the pick modes (to say nothing of game modes!) This brings up an important question, are you at all considering how these solutions would need to be changed to port to Dominion or TT (or do they not need to be ported at all)?

2) Either vote-kick, pre-game chat in tribunal, or some other option for handling pre-game toxicity should be made available to the players. Currently there is no way of dealing with this other than dodging, and it results in a lax attitude towards champion select where people feel they can get away with toxic behavior. The known and obvious threat of a report or vote-kick will help deal with pre-game toxicity and prevent it from causing bad games from the start. Yes, other options that attempt to make pre-game chat better by making the process overall better would be welcome, but the empowerment and deterrent potential of the more blunt methods are virtues in their own right.

3) I favor both vote-kick and pre-game chat inclusion, but I do understand that PB&J has finite resources. In defense of vote kick I will add that when communication is lacking it might be better to dissolve the lobby than play the game. It will result in longer queue times, but how large of a problem is that? If 4 people are willing to take on a longer queue time, is that worth the penalty to the other 6? Now, there is an obvious way to curtail abuses of this feature, but unfortunately it would involve adding in pre-game chat logs to the tribunal and mandating review of people frequently voting to kick. Worth it? That's not mine to decide, but I think it might bear consideration.

4) What is the value of simply adding in more information? Certainly I would love to see role preferences even if any of the other proposed solutions are implemented just because I think it would make communication easier. Would it be a sufficient solution in isolation? Is it worth the resources it would take to implement if it isn't? Again, I'm not paid for this (nor do I have access to the information you guys do) but they are things that I wonder. (My gut says no and yes, in that order, but I could be wrong) Also if a dungeon-finder system is implemented it should make role preference info public to the team just so that people who are willing to fill or who queued for multiple roles can more easily trade if they don't like the matchup or someone unexpected is left unbanned.


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DalisDL

Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by davin View Post
The tricky part here is that unlike WoW's Dungeon Finder, we don't have a single way of playing the game. Dungeons in WoW are designed to pretty much fit the tank/dps/heal model.

So when you match people together, you'd need some way of pairing together players who have agreed on a particular strategy or want to play in a certain way. Otherwise you might end up with two people who queued as best-at-Mid, and unless they're fine playing Double Mid, you'd get some pretty similar behaviors going on.
how about instead of the role, we get the lane?
Person 1: "Play, Choosen Lane: Top"
Person 2: "Play, Choosen Lane: Bot"
Person 3: "Play, Choosen Lane: Jungle"
Etc.
In the end, we get 5 players getting their lane (they choose whoever they want to be)
And everyone's happy. Most players get in lobby calling lanes, instead of champs.