Let's talk about Champ Select

First Riot Post
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Yezarul

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
I'm heading back to work for now, but I've seen some really interesting ideas and have a lot to talk about with davin, statuskwoh and the rest of the player behavior team. We will definitely keep tabs on this thread for new discussion points.

It's been pretty valuable touching base with the players to see what's important to you, and what types of problems and concerns you feel strongly about. Doing nothing about Champ Select is probably not the right approach. This is something I hope the player behavior team can tackle in the future.

Hey Lyte, I know I am late to the thread here (was out hunting for bacon!), anyways the issues I am concerned with in regards to Champion Select are (in no particular order:

People wanting to play champs first time/beginning times in a solo lane.

Low MMR duo'ed with a high MMR (for the carry) that is not great at all.

Losing a couple games and being paired with a lot lower MMR to then further have you drop more and lose more. (This in reference that I was at 99 LP in Silver 5 and paired with silver 3-5 and a bronze 3 [was a duo], the bronze 3 ended up being a solo lane [see above] and the other jungler, which caused a loss, then the next was just poor luck and now I am paired with a bunch of bronzes instead of silvers causing a lot harder time to gain LP and thus being forced to lose more LP)

AFKers causing LP loss for the whole team

People who can only play one/two positions forcing others to play positions they are uncomfortable with. (I will play any position as I am comfortable with most but my worse are Mid/ADC and I'm forced to take it sometimes because others say they are not great at it).

I'm sure there is more but these are top of my head.

Some ways to resolve (In my humble opinion):
WoW Dungeon Queue-er: This may increase times somewhat but can be balanced off by adding bonus IP/LP to low-played positions or possibly bonus IP/LP for weighted areas (IE You have won 70% of your support games, you queue for a support, you get bonus, you win 90% of you ADC you get bonus, etc.)

Increase ban time length/first selection time length so that you have longer time to communicate with your team.

Add pre-game and post-game chat into tribunal so the tribunal can get better views of players refusing to communicate with team in order to weed out toxic players.

Add an incentive for players to play roles, IE Win 50%+ games as a support/adc/jungler yada yada and get a title/border or something that lets people know that is your better position.

Again just a few off top of my head, I'd sit and list more but if I'm not even being read then there's no way of knowing I am being heard, then why spend more time trying to help.


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I LIEK PUPPIES

Junior Member

03-13-2013

I'll just toss this suggestion in with this account since I can't use my other one.

Use the WoW role calling option with a more expanded feature. You mentioned in a previous post that choosing this feature could cause issues for people that want to play an AD assassin mid or something out of the ordinary. The way to fix this would be for players to pick their three roles in order of what they want to play. Top/Mid/Jungle/ADC/Support. If you want to mix up the meta by putting two bruisers bottom with your ADC mid, just have ADC and Support options say "ADC/Duo Lane & Support/Duo Lane". Then in champion select, see if your team is willing to go with the idea. If they aren't then you should listen to your team, unless you are a toxic player yourself.

With role calling, you should be able to list two or three champions per role. Scroll over the summoner name in champion select and it will show your their three roles in order of what they chose, with the champions they picked for each role. If someone picked mid, they can choose Talon and talk to his team about putting an AP top or jungle. At least the team could see that he picked Talon in the mid category and could even ask him why he chose Talon as he tells the team of his strategy. It is not going to confine to the current meta, especially if you can choose two champions for each role and the team can see those champions and roles picked.

I'd go into more detail but I'm sure this will be lost and never read. Especially on a smurf account.


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ArcAngel916

Junior Member

03-13-2013

May I refer you guys to the post I made weeks ago about this issue.http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=3158717


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Trixshin

Junior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
I'm heading back to work for now, but I've seen some really interesting ideas and have a lot to talk about with davin, statuskwoh and the rest of the player behavior team. We will definitely keep tabs on this thread for new discussion points.

It's been pretty valuable touching base with the players to see what's important to you, and what types of problems and concerns you feel strongly about. Doing nothing about Champ Select is probably not the right approach. This is something I hope the player behavior team can tackle in the future.
I think i have a fix that will allow for the pick order to be in effect while still having the chat option enabled.
During the banning phase, Players will get a pop-up window that will occur in front of them The pop up window has a list of all roles. AD, Support, Mid, Top and jungle. They are To select 1 role they would like. After the first person has chosen there desired role. ( lets say AD) The words AD will be located beneath the champion splash.
After First pick has selected their desired role, everybody from 2nd pick - 5th pick will be able to see that 1st pick has selected the role AD, making them rethink what position they will play. Heres the thing, when the pop-up window goes to the 2nd player the option of AD disappears having only the option Support mid top and jungle left for selection. The 2nd player will then select a role ( lets say jungle) and the word jungle will then be located beneath his champion splash. The 3rd person will only be able to select support top and MID as those are the only options available. Chat will be disabled until banning phase is over. If players still troll pick, players will be allowed to report in champ select.
A new tribual report: Disobeying pick order
The Only flaw i can see with this is since there is no ban phase in blind pick it may be impossible to implement this idea. Also There would have to be a 5 seconds delay between each banning to prevent banning to go to fast so players can pick the desired role they want.
I think the WoW dungeon finder idea is more easier and beneficial, as there are no flaws i believe.


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Mirswith03

Junior Member

03-13-2013

I think the best solution is a variation of option one and two. So instead of a wowfinder type system that would enforce a meta. Why not have a section in your profile page that you can select what you enjoy to play. So you would have check boxes of all the types of possible roles that could be played ie. -support, -tank, -jungler, -ap carry, -ad carry, -brusier etc. and only allow 2 or 3 choices to be picked at once. Then have the match making system create groups that contain all possible choices. That way come champ select people can still work together to make their team and it doesnt enforce a meta. At the same time it might encourage people to play more support seeing as it would have the shortest queue time seeing as it would be the least checked option.

Then I would either have a vote kick option or remove the dodge lp deduction for cases of trolling and what not. Because it doesnt matter what type of system you implement there will always be trolls or afkers, but at least with the vote kick and the above system it would eliminate alot of the issues and create alot less work organizing your team at the beginning of champ select.


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silkscarf

Member

03-13-2013

I personally believe a slightly modified version of the WoW Dungeon Finder idea would work great. Modified in following way.

Before queuing up for a match, a player picks 5 champions that they want to, or are willing to play for their upcoming match. The matchmaking system then set's up groups where as few as possible champions overlap for each team. The banning phase begins as normal, and then as champion select occurs, if a player CAN pick a champion from their initial pool that they selected, they must pick one of them. If for some reason all of their initial five champions are unavailable, they can pick from any other champion they own.

Here are some advantages to a system like this:

The odds of a player being unhappy with their selection is low
The odds of five players being able to work as a team increases, due to each individual being, at the least, content with their pick
No one can reasonably blame any other person for not selecting a specific champion, each person had the chance to do so.
Opens up/Necessitates more creative team compositions and strategies

I'm severely biased with this idea, so I invite criticism, because seeing as how I just thought of this, I can't think of many disadvantages other than possible higher queue time.


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SwiftSwrd

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
Hm, this is a neat idea. I'd have to spend more time thinking it through, but this would diffuse responsibility instead of the entire team hinging heavily on how the Captain structures the draft. Because every team member has a voice in the draft, it might encourage players to feel more invested into their team composition.

Lots to consider with this idea.

My largest concern here is I've witnessed and been victim to "I don't like that champion so I'm gonna ban them so you can't play them" a fair number of times. Even worse, if there was argument over say, who gets to jungle - and the 2 arguing banned each others desired jungler... I could see many such toxic scenarios popping up.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Skrubbythethird View Post
At the risk of making an idiotic suggestion... I had an idea I've been toying with.

What if it was made so that when you enter solo queu, you get matched up with four other people, but you aren't faced with a team. So, you get put with four other people, and are given more time to talk to each other and figure out roles, but you don't get matched with another team to do picks / bans until you have a "Ready Check" like they do for raids in WoW. So until everyone checks the "Ready" button, or a set amount of time has passed (Significantly longer than the ~2-3 minutes we have in queu atm) you're just in a lobby talking to your potential 4 teammates.
I was gonna post this exact suggestion.


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Clutch Nuke

Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince Kassad View Post
6 Minutes Ago
Suggestion: Riot Games decides that pick order is the rule, and only allow players to talk DURING OR AFTER it is their turn to pick.

Thus taking away the option for call order. You could implement something like "suggested bans" or "requested picks" to give players a limited means to communicate to each other without the possibility for call order being relevant.

Pros:
-stops the pick/call debate
-stops people from arguing over the same champion
-would not reinforced the meta
-would not add to queue times
-trolls have less of a chance to troll
-trolls are still around decent humans and can learn the evil of their ways
-would make first pick feel better (kind of cancels out con #2 for rational people)

Cons:
-would stifle player interaction
-would make last pick feel bad (kind of cancels out pro #4 for rational people)

But how valuable is player interaction in champ select anyway? Almost no one strategizes before the first few picks are made. I cannot tell you the last time I heard someone say anything along the lines of "let's make a poke comp!" or "let's do protect the Kog!" Those strategies would still be able to develop organically (if the first two picks on the team are Nidalee and Caitlyn or Kog and Janna, for example). People would still be able to talk strategy after they made their pick to justify their choice or explain their goals.
But that makes a few fatal assumptions, maybe first pick is a player who is comfortable in all roles and uses chat in order to make good decisions about which role to fill, enabling people that play a more limited range of roles to pick their prefered role.
Taking away the ability of players to communicate with each other is insufficient in solving the problem.

Also in the cases of being qued with less experienced players, there are often cases where the player is unsure of the counter to a particular champion, so they may pick their main into a relatively hard lane instead of using one of their other frequently played champions when reminded that champ X has an easy time beating champ Y.

I think a modified sort of dungeon finder could provide some solutions, lets say you create a role finder, this works well for people that are generally willing to play the meta, and could cause tension for people that play atypical picks for a role, however if you coupled this finder with a feature stats option or something like that, lets say you are a main of an atypical build, what if on your summoner card in lobby there were slots to showcase a champion following a similar build pattern (lets say for example bruiser kogma) and this slot could show your kda and win ratio, along with your typical build for that role (this part would be very tricky to implement but not impossible, it would require a lot of work on the part of riot, to enable you to take a build you use and have it tracked independently, whihc would be required to prevent someone from saying I am good with top orianna, when they actually win as mid ori, form abusing the stat card.) This would likely require a sort of Role servey at the end of games, similar to the honour system, so you could have player feedback on if they felt the atypical pick was contributing, giving information to future players. Obviously this is not perfect, as it only benefits atypical pickers that are given a chance to play their role, and of course do well, but a modification of it could be a step in the right direction.


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Baccani

Junior Member

03-13-2013

I like this one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skrubbythethird View Post
At the risk of making an idiotic suggestion... I had an idea I've been toying with.

What if it was made so that when you enter solo queu, you get matched up with four other people, but you aren't faced with a team. So, you get put with four other people, and are given more time to talk to each other and figure out roles, but you don't get matched with another team to do picks / bans until you have a "Ready Check" like they do for raids in WoW. So until everyone checks the "Ready" button, or a set amount of time has passed (Significantly longer than the ~2-3 minutes we have in queu atm) you're just in a lobby talking to your potential 4 teammates.
On another note, I want to talk about focusing on teams.

Right now it seems like if you queue solo, it's a "me vs. my team" attitude. Do you think it would be worth it to try and cultivate a sense of camraderie among your potential queue-mates outside of matchmaking? For example, upon login, you could put me into a chat room filled with people with the similar elo, location, honor, # of wins, # games played, map preference, etc. (Also it would help if the chatroom was automatically visible and didn't cover up other parts of the client)

I think being in that kind of chatroom would make me more likely to play nice and form a party or team. Then we could figure out roles/pick order BEFORE queuing, and bypass most of the issues. (On the other hand, maybe the chatroom will just reinforce the idea that everybody else is a jerk/noob/etc.)


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Billy

Senior Member

03-13-2013

For the love of god, if you implement Prisoner's Island please don't make the punishment transfer over to people that player queues with. I've been playing Dota 2 recently, and one friend was afk for a few minutes in a bot game and got an abandon. The next queue we were *all* put in a low priority matchmaking queue and the game was terrible. It was a complete stomp with the enemies spewing insults at us in all chat, and at the end of the game when we asked them to please end the game they sat in front of our fountain killing us over and over instead of finishing. Of course the game ended with some courteous "gg noobs" on their part