Let's talk about Champ Select

First Riot Post
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alaskaneagle

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by davin View Post
Let's talk about these two points a little. From a queue time standpoint, a standard-meta queue actually wouldn't be too lengthy. When you take into account the multiple ways of playing support (Tank/Support/Kill Lane) and the players who are fine to fill all roles, you actually have around 15 to 20% of players being down for Jungle and Support (depending region and definition of those roles). So queue time may actually be less of an issue than it'd seem based on the popular perception of those roles as less-favored.

There may be other reasons why players aren't volunteering support in Ranked even though we know they are probably down for it. There's the potential for "have to carry your team!" perceptions pushing people out of the role, or the feeling of not being able to strongly influence what's happening, etc. As a support main, I'm not in agreement with those ideas, but I definitely recognize they're out there

Regardless, the dungeon-finder approach relies upon the idea of forcing a single ranked-style meta. And even though a ton of players do play the bruiser-top, mage-mid, carry/support bottom, jungle layout, there's successful strategies that rely on assassins mid, jungle-mages, carry/support top, etc. I think a decent amount of players wouldn't be down with a queue that only allows for one team layout.
54367

I don't like the dungeon-finder idea either. I find that some of the best games go off meta a bit or quite a bit which a system would have a hard time accounting for.

I do play support a lot in ranked, but only if I bring my own carry to support because people play very differently. Also I prefer supports which aren't played as often like zilean, teemo, mundo, and want to try heimerdinger. I play normal ones too but I find the lesser used sups can be more rewarding.


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Unban Auspexa

Member

03-13-2013

Don't let dungeon finder happen, it's obvious how terrible it will be.

Don't let prisoner's island happen, it's obvious how terrible it will be.

Let votekick happen for ranked only, otherwise it will be terrible.


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brb afk ftw

Junior Member

03-13-2013

Why are there only 3 options? There are clearly other changes that could be made; most would probably increase queue times or champion select times.

I'd like to start with a suggestion on the banning process (obviously no need in ranked 5s or tournament select), but I think the "captain" should pick 10 champions to ban initially (given say 1 mn or so to do this). The team as a whole then has 10 seconds to vote each ban round on which of the 10 to ban (still going back and forth) This opens up some additional team cooperation especially in instances where the "captain" doesn't communicate much. Trolls would still have an easy time as they could just pick 10 "weak" champions to ban and then the team wouldn't want to ban any of those, but this is just an example.

commenting on the vote to kick
Why not an ask to leave? If you ask to leave and the majority of your team agrees, can you not be able to leave without penalty? This doesn't immediately solve all issues, because they can be pressured into asking to leave, etc, etc. Again, just a suggestion

continuing with a question, how opposed are developers (Davin or Lyte I suppose in this case) to having more than one way to queue.

Another fun idea I had (for those of us willing to have long queue times for a potentially more rewarding game) would be to have a big "chat room" that eventually 5 or 6 (or more) teams are built from.
You would go in and you could talk with 30 people and say, "Hey! Does anyone need a jungler?" Or people could say, who needs a 5th, I'm willing for anything. You could see the teams being formed and they could write a short little snippet about what they are looking for or if they want to try some new strategies. People who are difficult to deal with would likely have a harder time finding their way onto a complete team, but hopefully they learn to compromise. To prevent "trolls" you can only say a limited amount of things in a given space of time.
Once you have 5, you all discuss one final time to agree to queue together and you enter a waiting time to find another group of 5. During this waiting time you can actually discuss strategies! Isn't that nice? Instead of looking at reddit during your queue, you can have strategic conversations with your actual team. Then the process occurs as normal. I think it would be reasonable to give an option to kick here now because a "troll" could act nice to get on a team and then do what they want after that. Obviously this is a huge rework and I'm not even sure if the developers are even willing to bother with something like this (due to time to code, etc, idk), but this is what I have slowly developed in my days of waiting in the solo queue.

in a long summary (with bullets!)
--have 2 types of queue. The current standard for 3-5 mades, and a new option (heavily advertised to get it rolling of course!) for single or duo queue.
--new option --> enter one of many rooms of people trying to form teams (rooms of 40? maybe more or less)
--you can talk (a limited amount) in a large group chat trying to find a team or look to find already partially formed teams that look like something you want to join.
--initially 2 people need to find each other in chat and agree to start forming a team that others could join.
--once a team has 5 they agree to enter basically as a 5 made into the queue line and wait for a game, the pick/ban process continues as standard

so! there we go, my big idea? any thoughts?

EDIT, not that clear, but it can either be a room of continuous in and out or a room of a static 30 that must make a set amount of teams and the remainder enters another room


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Feints

Junior Member

03-13-2013

Okay I'm going to post and throw everything with ideas.

Before I'd like to state that I am absolutely loving what the Behavior Team is doing right now and after reading your posts I am convinced you guys are the best.

What I have come up with after reading many of these replies is more emphasis on positivism. The Baron Icon caused a flurry of OMGHOWDOIGETIT reactoins that made me feel special, and a public display of what being positive can bring, i personally say we need more of that in industrial amounts, make everyone see what being a good player can produce! Maximillian Robespierre partially succeeded with the Reign of terror because everyone knew their heads would roll for anything, DO THE OPPOSITE! Make the Reign of Marshmellows and Crotch-thrusting comradery! In all honesty, we've all had our shares of toxicity in games, we've had also bad days and then a single game with a role-playing Gangplank support made us laugh or intestines out and we wishes we could honor that player until he became Riot CEO. Rewarding more and more players for positivity while keeping those prizes exclusive will slowly tilt the scale until ragers and afkers have a rap sheet of sheer social inadequacy, turning them into pariahs.

This would of course change since my musings are rather utopian, but none the less I believe heartily that this is what we need. Same as Dota 2 showcases exceptionally talented players on a weekly basis, we could do that with cheery ones in league, and everyone would thrive for being the happiest ganker alive.

From this Maybe we could stem a Captain's mode that would assign the most honorable, noble and respectable player as the commander giving everyone their role, and only this person would have access to the stats of his team and he would know who is better at what, keeping privacy and aggro to a minimum (ideally). Also, if you want to go bonkers, decide positivity based on the most typed words in chat, you can't go wrong with that, in my eyes the one flaw would be invasion of privacy.

But Robespierre never had a problem with that...


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LawliettX

Member

03-13-2013

You guys are using the word "toxic" a lot. You should rename "Prisonerís Island", "Toxicity" sounds better.


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SasakitheCouncil

Senior Member

03-13-2013

The solution to Champ Select problems:

Put Pregame chat in the tribunal reports.

Also, regarding the votekick option:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
Given a scenario with 5 strangers, if 4 strangers happen to agree on roles and the 5th doesn't, the 4 strangers are highly likely to collaborate to kick the 5th.
I don't really see what's bad about this.

1-4th pick all take open roles. 5th guy is stuck with support, but instead says "top or i feed". Shouldn't the 4 people who worked together (or at least didn't fight with each other) be justified in kicking the 5th?

Also, to prevent abuse:

1. The person votekicked will be given the standard dodge penalty.

2. In the event that he is unfairly kicked, there should be an option for him to file a report for "unfair votekick."

3. That case is sent to the tribunal.

4. If a strong majority decides that the kick was unfair, then he will be refunded LP, and the offenders will be warned, or punished, in the case of repeat offenders.

5. If a player is repeatedly kicked and files false "unfair kick" reports, he will temporarily lose the ability to report unfair kicks.

There ye go.


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Hellioning

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by LawliettX View Post
You guys are using the word "toxic" a lot. You should rename "Prisonerís Island", "Toxicity" sounds better.
Riot, hire this man.


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NationsCake

Senior Member

03-13-2013

I'm for the lane picking, and prisoner island

The main reason it's not implemented is because it would force the meta, but I think you guys are giving normal players far too much credit in their role in creating the meta

Let's be honest, many people are sub-par at this game, they play it for fun and aren't concerned with much else (mostly). Sure attaining a higher league is nice, but they don't strive for that. If you notice, many players are sheep, they watch professional streams and tournaments and copy what the professionals do. As an example, I've seen an influx of lulu tops due to voyboy's preference of that, not because they've experimented with champions to find viable builds for certain lanes, given that it's not a meta changing strategy, but it illustrates my point I believe. If any meta-change was to originate, it will be from people who are actually good at the game, IE: Professional players. That's why the meta hasn't changed yet so far, because the only people who would be willing to work at/influence the meta are professional players. Everybody else just waits.

I'm for prisoner island, and I really hope it gets implemented. I have a friend IRL who is a toxic player, and he is possibly the worst player I've ever played with. He constantly blames others for "ksing" and "not saving him", and leaves or refuses to play when faced with it. I can tell you that this is not going to change, two years and going. Toxic players will constantly be toxic players, nothing we can do will change their behavior, This is influenced by the fact that the game is free and nothing stops them from making a new account. I favor what another player said earlier about a league of toxicity, with reform points to get out. Furthermore, that IP, (if possible, I'm not exactly savvy in this field) should be connected to the toxic account as too prevent the creation of new accounts. This way they HAVE to reform if they want to still play, kind of like the point of a prison.

As a quick side-note, many toxic players are bronze because players in higher leagues have to cooperate with their team and play at a positive level to win. Many bronze players are going to end up at prisoner island because afkers/feeders won't win games. Trolls won't. and if rage originates from the dunning-Kruger effect as implied, then rage results from incompetence, so they won't win games either.


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paqw

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Senior Member

03-13-2013

make a vote for re-queue and dont put those players in the same team again


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Ruinating End

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Idk if this has been said, but why not make ques somewhat like custom games? You only join the custom game for a team(one side, there is no enemy team at this point), talk about wants, dislikes, etc. Pick champs, and where/what you are doing without a time limit. In this time everybody can leave. Then when you are all locked in, you can still leave. Once the lock in timer goes away. You get queued into the matchmaking system vs other teams.