Let's talk about Champ Select

First Riot Post
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A Wild Woody

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Senior Member

03-13-2013

The ability to Queue into a certain position is something i would love to see. It would keep pople from arguing about positions, and also keep the atmosphere positive allowing people to play their best roles.


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milllo

Senior Member

03-13-2013

What is the purpose of solo/duo queue and how does it differ from normals?

The main problem I have with both is bullies deciding that the way they want to play is the correct way and everyone who disagrees is a troll. The suggestions listed so far by reds would only enhance this.


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Broney

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Member

03-13-2013

On an unrelated side note but in the vein of improving player options, if you ever increase bans to 5 per team, would it be reasonable to give 1 ban to each player instead of having the "captain" have full control? That way they can ban the characters they dislike playing against or added communication allows the team to pick things as a whole, and people have a harder time arguing that the whole ban period was "wasted".

This might just end up with "all the other bans but mine were stupid", and more likely to screw over a teammate, I suppose, but it was a thought.


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Aeloit

Junior Member

03-13-2013

I like the idea of vote kick. Though, it seems fickle. Instead of vote kick, how about- "give up," or, a nicer way to say it, "Mutual Negativity."

The Give Up button would be to scramble the queve again. This is a dick move to the other team, but atleast 5 out of 5 are possibly happy, possibly some other players on the opposite team as well. While this can be considered very negative attitude toward something that can boil down to: "Junge Soraka is bad." or "**** Bot's Swain/Renekton Kill Lane." Just a suggestion, instead of the inconsistencies of the Vote Kick, like the bullying thing in normals.

Another thing, if someone were to have picked a role from a drop down list, then that should be displayed in the game. This could stop some possible griefing towards "If I pick support for my role, I will get a faster queve time." So they could have "Top/Anivia/Eggnog32." So you have more consistency to yell at them when they pick mid, or rather, rationalize your reasoning behind your well thought remark about her calling mid- the ****ing ****.

I don't know *noncommittal noises* in the end, I just want some changes to be made, hopefully we don't have to wait 5 months for changes, because it sure as hell can cause some anxiety in people to stop playing ranked daily, like me, while I just want to get out of silver 3. I can be more inclined to trust teammates before a game starts if some changes were implemented. That's all I want, some mutual agreement to be positive about winning... or negative *shrugs* whatever my opinion is at the time.

P.S. If you call for a surrender and the vote is: 3 yes/ 1 no/ 1 undecided. Throw that undecided person's vote out and let it surrender. **** that person, just plays with my heart, hoping that they will just say yes and nothing happens. Just a side note.


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Gaare

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
This player's behavior isn’t toxic. He’s just like any one of us--we all have our bad days.
I disagree and feel like that player is toxic (assuming he's player 2) even then just because someone rages at them first doesn't excuse their actions. And all the stuff about his day before hand shouldn't matter at all.

The problem with picks is that there's no set rule as to how things go. Sure the summoner's code says to honor the pick order, but it's not enforced. Even if people sometimes want to go with call order that's not reliable since sometimes people see things in different orders and occasionally people have issues with pvp.net and don't see chat for a while. Just the other day I did a normal with a friend and he said they called everything but adc and support, but I only saw someone call mid.

I honestly don't understand the issue with just enforcing pick order and adding that kind of stuff to tribunal. People complain all the time about dumb picks but in reality the pick is fine execution is just lacking. If it goes to tribunal enough people can see the that person wasn't trolling (example: nid support, taric jungle/top). This isn't dota where there's a bunch of different game plans going into the game. There are two solo lanes, one duo lane with one character supporting, and a jungler. Hell, the game has been balanced around the jungler aspect so it's pretty much understood that you HAVE to have a jungler. And really if you want to innovate the meta on a big scale you should be doing it with 4 other friends. One person trying to innovate the meta while the other 4 adhere to it is not going to work, you need the team to do stuff like that.
Quote:
1) Vote Kick | Players want the ability to vote kick toxic players from Champ Select.
2) WoW Dungeon Finder | Players want the ability to queue up for a particular role like “Healer” and “DPS” and placed into a Champ Select with a team
3) Prisoner’s Island | Players want matchmaking to pair toxic players with toxic players, and positive players with positive players.

What are some pros and cons to these ideas? Would they work for League?
1. vote kick is my favorite idea in ranked. 3 votes and they're out, league point penalty and all. In normals it's more difficult though. Certainly the more people the person queues with and the less likely they'll be vote kicked or the people queueing together can just kick others that want the lane their friend wants. Personally I'd be fine with vote kicking in ranked only since normals aren't supposed to be all serious try hard and a little experimenting is fine.

2. dungeon finder is something I like but I realize it just won't work. I'm fine filling and will take whatever roles people haven't called so I'll have instant queues and play jungle/support ALL the time, but it will be really unfun for people that heavily prefer mid/top. They'll get to play those all the time, but they'll probably only play half as many games (which is also not good for riot).

3. I can't say anything about prisoner's island. I see some pros and cons to it, but it really heavily depends on a few things.

-How do people get put there?
-How do people get out?

If it just goes by people warned/suspended then that sounds nice, but there have been a few examples of the tribunal banning for no reason and I'd hate to think that those people get thrown into that cesspool because people just clicked ban on the tribunal without reading. I know these cases are rare, but still.

And how would prisoner's island work with ranked? I see diamond people streaming and they have some long queue times. So getting put into this group would increase wait times even more for the person (in which case he'll just make a smurf and bring his toxicity to the new players) and increase the positive player's wait times since there's a smaller pool of opponents.


So really the only option I can think of is vote kicks. Maybe create another game mode for summoner's rift so there's ranked (with vote kick), solo/duo queue normals with vote kick (for people that want to play somewhat serious but not get stressed about demotions), and then normals like what is in place currently with no vote kick. And honestly the vote kicking to me is a lot better option that will prevent toxic behavior. By the time people get their reform cards the games are long gone and they don't really understand what they did, where vote kicks give them instant feedback when they're being a jerk. Plus this is way to encourage/enforce non toxic behavior since it doesn't matter if they make a smurf or not, they'll still get vote kicked. The only other option I see is for Riot to get hard on bans themselves. I played dark age of camelot for a long time and people got away with pretty much anything in that game. People were dropping N bombs left and right and people were cheating with radar (map hacks). Every two months or so they'd ban SOME of the people cheating, but they could just make new accounts and continue cheating (and they did). The punishments came too slow and weren't really all that bad since the cheaters were back in a week or so anyway. So really something has to be done about smurfing and making multiple accounts. It's bad enough to have toxic behavior at lvl 30 but if I was new to the game and had to play with all these people I'd just uninstall the game thinking the game was terrible when it's just the people I was paired up with.


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Monomus

Member

03-13-2013

I've posted this a numerous number of times but I've never actually gotten an answer, and I'd like to know what your opinions on this would be.

Firstly, I've always been all for a "Vote to Kick" model, but I definitely see your concerns with the system being abused. You are cautious of "unfair kicking". However, what would constitute unfair kicking? A player just being kicked by a premade or being kicked for picking an awkward champion for his role could be seen as unfair. Yet, I think that these cases could be resolved as such:

Allow the vote to kick function:

1) Make the kick screen like the report screen, (Force the Voter to pick a reason for kicking, ie language, trolling, feeding, etc)

2) Then pass the vote to the other teammates

3) 4/5 votes get the player kicked, and a report file is sent.

4) And now for the magic: NO wait time after a kick. If the kick is unjustified then the player can just start another game, and the report file will prove his innocence. If the report is justified, then the player will queue for another game and either 1) get what he wants and not troll, or 2) if player is toxic will just keep getting kicked/reported and will never find a game until he loosens up. Let the system resolve itself


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kodeman

Senior Member

03-13-2013

How about implementing Prisoner's Island for normals and disabling ranked for toxic players, and requiring them to complete a certain amount of matches without reports in order to earn the right to play ranked again. Seems like it would decrease the amount of trolls in ranked substantially


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Mayan Snipe Jock

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Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Status Kwoh View Post
I think there are definitely some things here that are interesting to think about that I like. And you're spot on with your cons of this mode. Question is, how bad are these cons? Are they the sort of trade-offs that players would be okay with?
Wow I'm really happy to see a red response to this so quickly, you guys rock!! I'm currently studying Game Design and Production Management at university so seeing interest from someone at the top is very gratifying =D!

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I personally believe that the pros here outweigh the cons, I can see how a player who like to play off the wall stuff could perhaps take issue to the system though. In addition to this there isn't any reason why someone who didn't want to play using this sort of system couldn't play a normal or play as a captain.

There is also no reason why this sort of game type couldn't exist in tandem with existing versions of draft pick.

Most of the trade-offs here exist outside of the gameplay itself anyway. Giving players another excuse for example, is something that even if it didn't exist, that player would have come up with something else anyway.


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Aithòs

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Ok, I didn't want to repost since I have it all consolidated but I feel like I'm never going to get my ideas looked at if I don't post them in more detail. Here is my full post: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=3169771

I'll post my thoughts on "meta" and champion select, if you want to read about pick vs call order or ELO hell you'll have to look at the original.

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The "META":

Let's start off by discussing this since people like to toss the word around like it's going out of style. First of all, when referring specifically to video games the term "meta" usually means the concept of min/maxing within an environment to achieve the best chance of success. There can be multiple related or unrelated "metas" in a game and they can change quickly or slowly, but in all cases there is a high level of strategy and logic applied. The term "viable" is usually a reference to the "meta" in describing a specific thing: a class, a specialization, a champion, an item, a strategy.

So let's talk about League of Legends. There are really three major metas: champion, item and map. The first two are obviously related and change often and rapidly, the final is somewhat related but is much more static for obvious reasons. So let's talk about each of them briefly.

Champion meta - This meta is what you watch on a weekly basis, who is currently powerful, which abilities are having the biggest impact on matches and where are they powerful. The meta really only applies to the highest levels of play, aka pro play. The reason is that you need to take the skill-cap of the player/champion into account and that will throw off the perception of balance the further away from the top you go. This is why game developers balance based on pro play, it is more accurate and the ONLY way to have a true competitive environment. To summarize: the champion meta says who is good and where they are good.

Item meta - This one is pretty easy because it's nearly all math. Which items can you buy for each champion that give you the best stats for the gold. It changes a lot because champions ratios change and items get tweaked as well. It is intimately tied to champion because each one has unique passives and scaling, an armor pen item might work great for one champion but horrible for another. Can you build it on either? Sure. It will even improve both characters, but which item is optimal is what the meta is about. To summarize: there are right and wrong items to build even if all items would improve your champion.

Map meta - This is the one I've been waiting for, this is the meta most people seem to wrap into the champion meta and not really understand. The map meta relates to the limited resources on Summoners Rift! Wait, did I say resources? Yep. This game is all about collecting resources! Of course I mean exp and gold. Each team has 4 sources of those resources and there is 1 (yep one) right way to divide them. I want you to pay attention here VERY carefully, because I'm not talking about champions or roles right now and that's an important distinction.

The positions are top, middle, bottom and jungle and there is only one way to divide your team: 1-1-1-2. The ideal setup is two solo lanes, one duo lane and one in the jungle. It doesn't matter which lane is your duo, it doesn't matter which champions go where, it is simple math that this is *THE* most efficient use of exp and gold for your team. You don't put 2 in the jungle because on it's own it can't support two people and we aren't talking about complex team strategies involving enemies...just the most efficient way of dividing people.

Alright, now that we have those out of the way I'm going to throw you a curve-ball in the form of a sub-meta. That's right, I'm about to blow your mind.

Role meta - The "role" meta is what really gets your panties in a bunch. This is what people who are against a "role queue" are talking about and the poor map meta is getting thrown under the bus even though it's unrelated. The role meta is really based around team composition and the attempt to define basic roles that the champions do well so that you end up with a balanced team without major weaknesses for the enemy to exploit. A good team pretty much requires most of the following: engage, disengage, poke, cc, a tank, damage (both AD/AP), sustain and some utility.

In order to do that people come up with a general expectation of where it will come from: top is tanky/bruiser, mid is ap caster, bot is ad carry and support and jungle fills the holes. There is nothing that says those are absolutes, why can't the ad carry go mid and the ap caster go bot? They can, the thing is that regardless where they go the TEAM needs to agree. The problem that exists today with both call and pick order is that you're throwing 5 people into a room without any prior knowledge of where each of them wants to play and hoping that they all can be mature and come to a consensus of what should happen next. Regardless of the outcome, the system is setting solo queue teams up to fail and that is why this has become such a big issue. So let's talk about it....

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Role-Preference Queue:

Ok, now that we've talked about a few of the other misconceptions out there I'm going to lay out what my personal opinion is for a role system and why it will work. I'm going to start by listing a few points and go from there:

1) A role queue where you select a single role is a TERRIBLE idea. One of the big fears about a role queue is that it will significantly increase queue times and everyone will end up waiting 30 minutes for a match. If you select a single role, you're probably right. I just want to get this out there because it's one of the misconceptions, a single role is not the only or best way to make this work.

2) A preference queue where you select a minimum number of roles in order of what you would like to play is a GREAT idea. My opinion is 3 is the magical number, most people have 2-3 roles they enjoy or at least tolerate and 1-2 that they can't stand. If you had people rank at least 3 then odds are that nearly any group of 5-7 people you find are going to cover all 5 of the "roles". The time would probably increase a little bit, but we're talking a very small amount. If I had to guess I'd say the average might go up a min or two TOPS. Outliers like Mr 3000 ELO only person in the world that high don't count, poor guy is going to have to wait in the current system too while it goes through 4,000,000 searches in slowly increasing increments anyway.

3) A role-preference queue doesn't hurt your "meta". The map still has 4 ways to get experience and gold, people have basic expectations of what each spot should bring to a team in a RANDOM queue situation. You may not agree with the role meta and you're welcome to your opinion, you should find 4 like-minded people and make a TEAM. You can do whatever you want, but if you grab 4 random strangers your opinion is not more valid than theirs. A role-preference is based on the widely accepted norm of what is most efficient for the map in regards to positioning. It does NOT tell you what champion to play.

I'm going to expand on this because it's important: just because you queue for top doesn't mean you have to select a tank/bruiser. There is STILL room for unconventional picks in a system, but just like calling top and picking Soraka today you need to be prepared for what people expect you to do when you are top. The same rules of consideration and discussion apply to ANY method of champion/position selection. The difference is that in a role-preference queue everyone KNOWS ahead of time what the system has assigned them to.

4) When the queue pops it shouldn't tell you what position you've been assigned. This might sound silly, but if I queue top > middle > support and a support queue pops I might just decline it until I get top. That would significantly slow down queues (which is part of the issue WoW had with LFR and 2/3 queues). Once you enter champion select it would show what position you've been given and you can discuss with your team bans and champion selections without having to worry who is where on the map. This is where you discuss unconventional things like kill lane bot, double top or jungle, etc. Since you don't have everyone yelling at each other you might even have a better chance at convincing them.

As a quick note: If you implement a system like this I would weight which position you played last game into what position you get next game. In the WoW example they made it so if you get a 2/3 queue and complete it...your next queue is basically 100% 0/3. So if I get my third or fourth choice of role, the next game I queue I'll be more likely to get my first or second choice. It wouldn't be easy and would have to be performance tested, but I'm confident Riot could figure it out. It's just a lot of math and data crunching.

5) A role-preference queue should NOT limit your champion pool. This is a big deal, if I queue support I don't think I should only have 10 champions to select from. This is one place I agree with the anti-queue argument, limiting selection is a bad idea. Not to mention in order to do it you'd have to constantly be updating the pools based on what is considered "viable" and account for any champions who blur the line. If someone is clearly a troll: "hey guys, I'm going to build tanky top lane" then locks in Soraka....that's what reporting is there for.


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The Scoundrel

Junior Member

03-13-2013

An alternative to vote kick would be a "Request new Lobby" switch- make it hidden from other players, and enacted only when majority of players activated it. To keep teams from having an advantage, the team counts as 1 vote, with a majority of the team required to activate it. (So, I have a 4 man team. We count as one vote, at least three of the four members of our team have to vote in order to activate our vote, and we don't get a new lobby unless the player not on our team also votes for a new lobby.)