Let's talk about Champ Select

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VerdantDargon

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sadarac152 View Post
The solution that I read and felt would be most helpful was a system where when players would que up, they would select three roles in priority of what they would like to play. These roles would be displayed under peoples names in champ select and this would let players see at a glance what roles people are willing to play, so the team can quickly decide as a group who is going where.
Quoting myself because this discussion moves too fast.

It would look something like this

Player 1: ADC, MID, Support
Player 2: Top, ADC, Jungle
Player 3: Support, Adc, Top
Player 4:Jungle, Mid, Top
Player 5:Top, Mid, Jungle

In this case, it would make most sense for 1 to ADC, 2 to top, 3 to support, 4 to jungle and 5 to mid, and everyone walks away with their 1st or second choice of role.


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Lyte

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Lead Social Systems Designer

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03-13-2013
37 of 55 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by timtwins View Post
The fact that you don't deny seems to insinuate that more "lower tier" players would be in prisoner's island. I see several reasons for that. People perceive bronze as a low tier and therefore they also consider the other players in it as "lesser" players. They have less respect for those players and assume that they cannot fulfill the needs of the team. This leads to toxicity. The second and even more obvious reason is that because being toxic lowers your chance to win a game, the lower the tier you are in, the higher the chance of you losing games because of toxicity.

Now, to move onto discussion about the topic at hand.

Riot and the player-base both seem to agree that champion select is a potentially toxic place. There are a lot of proposed solutions and each of them has its upsides and downsides. After reading Riot member posts for a few years now, I can safely say that you focus on the downsides of the system in order to ensure that you can create the prefect solution. In fact, you often ignore some solutions because of minor downsides in a hope that you can find a better solution. A good example of this is the tribunal. Systems similar to the tribunal were suggested for a long time before it was finally enacted. It appeared that a major reason for this was the downsides of tribunal. Riot employees were afraid that people would incorrectly ban players. In fact, in several threads where a tribunal like system was suggested, riot members responded by pointing out that players could be potentially banned.

Several years later we now know that the tribunal was a huge success. It is a shame that it was not enacted more quickly. That being said, I hope you do not make the same mistake with things like champion select and enact a system so lately that you potentially turn players away from the game like you did with the tribunal. I know you want to find the perfect solution but sometimes in order to improve the game experience, you don't have to find the perfect solution, just a better one. So, when considering all the ways to "fix" champion select, please keep this in mind because new players ARE being turned away from this great game because of the toxicity. Champion select may not be the biggest source of toxicity but it is the first time where players can interact with each other and starting off on a good foot will help the game a lot.
Just to clear things up, Bronze players are not more likely to be toxic or candidates for Prisoner's Island. Last I checked, toxic behavior has a pretty similar distribution across skill levels with some spikes here and there.


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Xarkanadushak

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Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by davin View Post
Not really an idiotic suggestion, we've talked about something similar before. It does add a pretty hefty barrier to entry (more time before your game starts), but is a solution largely aimed at resolving time pressure and allowing for teams to ensure chemistry.
yet still doesn't solve what i believe to be one of the core problems, which is people first and foremost rush to call their favorite role by spamming 3 letters as fast as possible rather than putting up anything more informative that takes longer to type, which is y an inbuilt feature to leave a premade message could encourage so much more co-operation by removing the time stress between the 3 people wanting to put "mid" as fast as possible because they only play mid and one other role but typing "mid or top" would take longer and they would probably have both called out from under them if they tried


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Practically

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
RL context isn't an excuse for players to behave negatively or in a toxic way; however, RL context is an important variable that designers need to consider when designing a game because RL context can influence how players play the game.

The question is, "Is it possible to design a game feature that reduces the impact of RL context?"

What you're trying to do is design a game feature that influences variables outside the client that is LoL, and unless you can find a way to reach out to every player and have them vent to you, I don't think that's entirely possible.

The whole vote-kick thing sort of gives people a "time out" effect though. After so many times of being kicked out of champ select because he/she was a ****, then they'd get the picture.


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Darkwahn

Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by davin View Post
Sort of--it's more likely that within a given game a non-you person will be responsible for a mistake (assuming you all have equal mistake chances / skill), but NOT more likely than any given player will have a higher chance of making a mistake.

We all make mistakes, but we remember the ones that others make much more strongly.
Sort of disagree with this.

Maybe I'm just excessively self critical though.


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TheFern33

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
Vote kick is an interesting idea that has been suggested by players for quite awhile; however, what are some of the goals we'd like to accomplish for Champ Select?

One, we want to encourage cooperation in Champ Select. Two, we want players to have an ability to opt-out if they are 'stuck' with players they perceive are toxic or extremely negative. Vote-kick systems tend to give players an opt-out mechanism; however, they do not encourage cooperation.

In fact, in some scenarios vote-kick systems encourage premade groups to bully the strangers in the lobby into specific roles or champions. Given a scenario with 5 strangers, if 4 strangers happen to agree on roles and the 5th doesn't, the 4 strangers are highly likely to collaborate to kick the 5th. Given a vote-kick system, we are likely to see more disagreements than before, and greatly increase the time it takes to get into a game.
If you are worried about players using vote kick improperly imply negatives to the people kicking the player. In ranked if the group collectively decides to kick a negative player everyone gets a minor (5 mins-10 mins) penalty before they can que in. The kicking players get no LP/ELO punishments but simply just have to wait. (you can even lore it to that if a summoner halts the summoning process the remaining summoners have to "recharge")

The kicked player gets a 10-15 min penalty and some sort of mark that they were kicked (like leaver buster). This promotes people using the Kick system to take the lesser of two evils. The kick system saves them from dealing with a toxic player and keeps them from instantly requeing while trolls are fresh in there mind. This prevents the (OMG 7 champ selects in a row all trolls hate this game) mentality that can turn normally cooperative players into toxic players themselves. It also prevents the non toxic player from just kicking to get out of a game because they have to wait a few mins.

This really makes the player think is it worth waiting 5-10 mins to not play with this person or is this game acceptable with what we have. It also gives toxic players a chance to think about why they were kicked. "You were kicked from matchmaking by 4/5 of players. a 15 min Que timer has been enforced" This is going to make the player either rage about the kick and log off (trolls and toxic players) OR make them sit back and say I was so toxic 4 strangers agreed I wasn't worth 1 games worth of their time. (a Generally reasonable or pleasant player whos just having a bad day.)

I would personally embrace this kind of system in being kicked and being the kicker.


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Bu Gao Xing

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Master Recruiter

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fancy Penguin View Post
If people want to pick trundle support they're going to do it anyway. This doesn't stop them from doing it.
I played Trundle Support... stealing attack damage from enemy adc's with Rabid Bite, stealing armor and magic resist from the intiator with Agony... dropping that pillar in the middle of the fight to slow everyone or block paths. Why can't Trundle support exactly?


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Broney

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Member

03-13-2013

I think better than a "votekick" would be a "this team doesn't work" vote- sort of a "we surrender before anything actually happens" - no individual gets specifically blamed but the team still gets to acknowledge that they shouldn't be matched together. To not screw over the other team I suppose this should happen before actual matchmaking, like the comment on page 71.

I like the idea of the WoW raidfinder for various reasons. For starters, while I am all for meta-breaking experiences, solo queue is not the place I go to seek those out - in general such things require additional communication and that's generally not very available in solo queue. I'm still in placement matches, but the only game I've lost was the game that I was last pick and forced to jungle (which I stated clearly that I was not very good at). I don't mind having some variety in roles - Top, Support, even ADC. But I'm not very good with Mid or Jungle, and if we have a group of five people where _nobody_ is good at Jungle we're at a huge disadvantage that shouldn't necessarily reflect on our individual MMR for our preferred roles.

I'd also be interested in seeing things like stats about how good people are _at_ specific roles- I kind of suspect that in my preference list of Top > Support > ADC each > signifies another 100-200 points of MMR, but there's no real way to either test that or compare with other people. I don't expect we'll ever got those stats, but I think having defined roles to queue for will actually lead to _better quality_ solo queue games, since everybody can play their strength.

I have no objections with longer queue times in exchange for greater specificity about what I'm doing, because I know I'll enjoy the game more and will have more information about my teammates (the understanding that their MMR more accurately matches their preferred roles, which they will be in, for starters).

I think I have other things to say in this thread but they're separate from this so I'll post this and come back.


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arcticturtle

Member

03-13-2013

For what it's worth, I'll bury my opinion in your flood of text. Yet another wall of text incoming... My first paragraph is about my own experiences with champion select. My second paragraph is a suggestion to improve the situation. My third paragraph is pondering a bit about personal theories on why it isn't working. (this is not the first paragraph >.<)

My experiences: I think it is all about the mindset you have when entering queue. Obviously, when doing a 5-man premade, there is a lot less squabbling over who gets to pick what (although not even that is always easy). For Summoners Rift, I have found that people go into bot games and instalock a champion because they just want to try out a specific champion and only sometimes do they also care about what role they play. For SR Normals people care a bit more and sometimes even ask to follow the meta, but they don't care that much and won't rage if the team is suboptimal (I'm assuming because again they mostly want to try something out). For SR Normal Draft, a lot changes because you have those who want to play seriously but not in ranked (like me) mixed with people who just want to ban a champ which they think is very annoying to play against but they don't care about meta or position that much. So SR Normal Draft most often result in dodges and arguments, in my experience, because people join that queue with so different expectations. I haven't played more than one ranked game, but it seems like in ranked people are a lot more obsessed about "the meta" and refuse to accept original thinking or people who don't "try hard", even if someone who plays outside of "the meta" is actually stronger that way because these people are so inoculated with propaganda about what is a winning team composition. For Dominion, it is very different than SR. People enter Dominion Normal often just to pass time and they don't care about winning or losing or if their entire team is filled with trolls. For Dominion Normal Draft, again there is the case of some people going there just to ban some unwanted opponents and rage if they are not banned, or they go there because in general people tend to play a little bit more seriously so you actually have a chance of using your skill to affect the outcome of the game. But then, so few people are playing Dominion that often everyone gives up queue-ing for Draft and end up mixed in Normal anyway, which I think causes even more people to abandon Dominion because there are so many conflicts in champion select. Over all my accounts I have around 250 wins on Summoners Rift and around 400 wins on Dominion. I still reminisce sometimes about the times when it was possible to enter a Dominion game and have a strategy discussion, instead of just picking flavor of the month champ to faceroll. Sad times nowadays, but it's not that much better in Summoners Rift.

My suggestion: Anyway, since people who enter different queues seem to have different mindsets, and since these mindsets seem to be causing most of the problems I have seen, I think that the solution you are looking for is adressing the queue system. Somehow letting the players define their expectation on their team mates when they enter queue. Maybe remove the queue system (normal/draft/ranked) and instead let the player start a game by saying "I want to try my best, I will try my best with any one of X champions I own" versus "I just want to have some fun, I will have fun with a random champion" and then just automatically queue them up with similar people.

Other thoughts: I think that having just one ranked queue is a problem. Since Normal MMR/LP/Elo/whatever is hidden, some people will always enter ranked "just for fun" to see what points they might get, and they mix with people who seriously want to improve and treat the game as a sport. In normals, you have a similar problem where people who are very casual about the game mix with people who are thinking about playing the game as a sport and want to prepare themselves for this. In Dominion you have these problems amplified a lot more, and I personally think that contributes a lot to why people aren't playing Dominion much. But of course the problems in champ select go deeper than this. Like you have mentioned before, some people are only good with one champion and don't have any intention to learn a second champion other than to get by without reports of intentional trolling. Other people try to learn every role decently and never get to be pro's with one champ/role. But I think such conflicts are much more difficult to solve than just adressing the mindset that people have when entering a queue.

TL;DR: A lot of the problem starts before champion select. You should allow people more room to state their intentions with the game they are about to play.


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Delta Sniper

Senior Member

03-13-2013

So i have been thinking about this with a friend on the way to his house to do some of our own game development and here is a solution we came up with.

Group 5 random people with similar ELO. Essentially you want to group two groups of 5 with similar elo so you can pit them against each other.

Put these people in a chat room with their names as player 1, player 2, etc... So they cant look you up on LOLking.

Put the vote kick button in here and also put a timer in here of say 2 minutes. Allow the people to talk about what they are wanting to play and get to know each other and the positions they want to play.

Give them a ready button and a leave button A small penalty for leaving depending on how fast they leave within the 2 minutes. after the two minutes are up if not all 5 have said ready give them 10 more seconds to hit ready.

Now this is the kicking system. If they dont hit ready after the 10 seconds kick them from team but dont disband the team, Do the same thing if 4 of 5 feel like kicking the 5th player. Key here is to not disband team. send in another random and give them 1 or 2 more minutes to talk with this guy probably 2 minutes.

If they kick a total of 2 or 3 people then disband their team because they are most likely looking for one role say mid and will continue to kick until they get one.

Now you go to champion select with your 5 once a team has been made, along with another 5 obviously.

You can finally show names and people can pick what they want as they are doing currently maybe decrease timers between stages.

Make the dodge penalty in here SEVERE. And remove the vote-kick button. This should make people show more trust in their teammate who most likely knows what they are doing. and reduce people from dodging because i picked rammus support who i could be a beastly support with.

Edit: This is a Strict Ranked system it would need to be adjusted a lot for normals.