Let's talk about Champ Select

First Riot Post
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Fancy Penguin

Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unban Auspexa View Post

Dungeon Finder is already a bad idea, enforces meta. What if I choose support role to find a game faster and then choose Trundle? You can prevent this from happening by limiting champion pools for roles but then again who is to decide which champion is good at which role? .
If people want to pick trundle support they're going to do it anyway. This doesn't stop them from doing it.


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Ctta0s

Junior Member

03-13-2013

I think WoW Dungeon Finder is the way to go, but there are some subtleties involved. Here's my idea for alleviating some of the potential problems with this approach.

1. You can queue for any of a selection of lanes (Top, Mid, ADC, Jungle, Support). Note that these are checkboxes, so you can queue for 1 or for all 5. The matchmaking system will make sure that each team has one of each lane.
2. In parallel, you can also queue for a selection of roles: Mage, Assassin, Bruiser, Tank, ADC, Support. Some of these will be restricted by your choice of lanes in accordance with the meta (for example, you can't queue for Tank unless you are queuing for Jungle, Support, or Top). The matchmaking system will try to make sure you have a good mix of these on your team.
3. When you get into game, you will be assigned a lane and the UI will display what roles you are comfortable playing in that role (e.g. if you are assigned support, it might list "tank", "support", and "mage" depending on what you selected when queuing). Before the banning phase, there will be some time (say 30 seconds) where you can swap lanes. As with champion swaps, this is a two-way exchange.
4. If you don't want to queue for the current meta, you don't have to. You can select "meta-free" and the system will work pretty much as it does now. Players who select "meta-free" will only be matched with other players that select "meta-free".

Why I think this is a good solution
1. It's flexible. You don't have to pick a role or even a specific lane before queuing up. You just indicate what roles/lanes you'd be comfortable playing.
2. It prevents fighting over lanes. The system assigns each player a lane, so there's no arguing over what lane to play. You can still swap around if everyone is agreeable, but it's very clear who gets what lane if there's a disagreement.
3. The player's role within their lane is still left open, so interesting approaches can still be tried (e.g. Vayne top). The extra 30 seconds before banning allows the team to discuss strategy and hopefully get a good diversity of roles. Worst case, there might not be good role diversity, but at least everyone is playing something they signed up for instead of being shunted into a lane/role they aren't comfortable with.
4. If players really want to play weird compositions (e.g. double mid, double jungle, etc.), they can do that by queuing "meta-free."

I think the vast majority of players are fine playing in the regular meta when in solo queue and this system would really make team select more enjoyable for them because they would always end up playing a role they had signed up for. I also think the display of roles would result in more viable team comps as well.


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Dearnis

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Really, Champ Select is the most toxic part of the game right now. People know there's very little consequences for their behavior there, since it won't make it to the tribunal; they know they can force people to take penalties for them by trying to force dodges; there's just too many toxic behaviors they can engage in without punishment.

I'd say the first thing we need is simple; tribunal reporting of pre-game chat. Not some big, grandiose new feature, but expansion of an existing one. Add consequences for "X or I feed", because that's the worst part of the champ select right now - someone bullying their team into accepting their choices 'or else', with no cooperation or attempt to work with their team in a team game.

For the others - which focus on improving champ select in general - Vote Kick, I think, has been addressed in terms of 'people will abuse it'. Prisoner Island makes little sense to me; if you have enough toxic data on someone to put them in prisoner island, you should be suspending them or banning them instead.

The suggestion I have would be to create a WoW dungeon-finder-style queue, with a fun twist.

Why not have multiple queue types?

Say, for example, Queue A is for Solo Top + Solo Mid + Jungle + Support/ADC
Queue B is for Solo Top + Solo Mid + Jungle + Kill Support/ADC
Queue C would be "Unconventional Team" (And serve as a catchall for "I want to do something strange)
And you could mark down the roles you're willing to play in which queues through a series of checkboxes - say, marking you're willing to play any role in Queue B, and any role in a non-support Queue A. This way, you can adjust the queue types dynamically in the future as new metas emerge; and people can create their own styles of play. Unconventional, as well as 5s, allow for people to try challenging the meta to make it evolve. Because that evolution is important.


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ZeroSoulreaver

Senior Member

03-13-2013

1- Vote Kick- It may work, it may not. I'm not sure if you can trust players to not kick others who they feel "picked a troll champ" Meaning if they pick a champ most people don't consider viable they may be subject to kicks just because of that.

2- WoW Dungeon Finder- I don't like this, it makes the game seem like less than it is. Yes LoL has roles, but they are never 100% dedicated. Many champs play more than one role and can change on the fly. I can already see people queue up for a role and then in game just going somewhere else. It doesn't really solve any issues at all.

Their is also the issue of team composition, now you queue for a role but can't change based on other people's picks.Let's say someone picks a support and you change your mind and want to play an ADC...oops now you can't even though you have second pick.

The truth is, a lot of people don't even know what role they want to play before they enter champ select.


3- Prisoner's Island- This sounds crazy, how would this even work? I can already see some crazy things happening because of this one.


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Jman650

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Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Potato of War View Post
What if we just had a bit of time to chat with our team BEFORE clicking on the accept/decline button? With some limit to decline (something like after 5 declines you must wait 5 minutes to queue again).
Player1: "can I go mid?"
Player2:"I prefer top"
Player3:"MID OR FEED"
*anyone but Player3 clicks decline*

edit - and of course, Player1 could say he don't need to go mid and let P3 go mid
i like this


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Wyl

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Senior Member

03-13-2013

First of all, I think the feature to remove people who random (time hits 0) from queue is # 1 priority. It will solve at least 2% of the problem.

Now, I think the problem isn't utterly in the playerbase, neither is it a problem of toxicity; they do take parts in it, but the biggest problem is communication, or the lack thereof.

In the following text, I'll put an heavy focus on Ranked, as it's what I play the most.

I'll start by saying that most people don't put enough attention to Champion Selection, many people will often not look at it at all, and wait for their pick turn to actually try to pick up what has been said. This could be partly solved by putting more attention to the air client, whether by making it pop up at every pick/ban or just make it top priority (I have few coding knowledge so stop me here if that's impossible). It might annoy people enough that they will actually take time to do whatever they need to do BEFORE going into a queue. I still see many people, and I'm up in Platinum 1-2, say that they need to take a piss or a **** or whatever. Others are just checking facebook, jerking off, etc. Very few people are actually paying 100% attention to Champion Select, even I don't always do it and I missed importants things because of it. After all, the game starts in Champion Selection, not at the 1:00 mark. This needs more attention.

Let's go to the main communication point now that we talked about actual awareness. Let's take ARAM for comparison. When you go into an ARAM (we really need that matchmaking for it), very few communication is required because it requires you to actually just play what you got, everyone is on the same level (more or less) and you accept that you might not be good or not with the said Champion in the given situation and that people probably aren't pros with their Champions in the given situation either. Everyone is on the same level, being good at a given role won't help you that much. Only experience matters, and the situation.

Now what does it have to do with SR ? Well, people will attempt to do the complete opposite, because, as you said it, no one trust anyone (hell i don't even trust myself sometimes). I'm not asking for being forced to play something, I'm asking for knowledge. That said, we're getting closer to the ''WoW Dungeon finder'' here. My actual proposition would be to have displayed your aptitudes. Not your best Champions, not your best roles, but what you can do better and what you don't have much skills in.

For example, you would preset your roles in decreasing order in your profile. If we take myself as an example, it would be : Mid > Support > ADC > Top > Jungler. It could be displayed when you enter Champion Select and/or when you hover over a player picture in your group.

What would it solve ? Well, most people have the tendancy to call their best role only, maybe their two bests, but that's it. With that kind of setup, people will be able to do lane assignations faster and better.

Given the following example :

Player 1 : Mid > Sup > AD > Top > Jung
Player 2 : Mid > Top > Jung > AD > Sup
Player 3 : AD > Sup > Mid > Top > Jung
Player 4 : Top > Mid > AD > Jung > Sup
Player 5 : Mid > AD > Jung > Sup > Top

You can also add the option : Jack of all trades.

We have 3 Mid ''mains'', 1 AD ''main'', and a Top ''main''.

This example is quite simple, but :

Player 1 would get Support, Player 3 would get AD, Player 4 would get Top, and 2 & 5 would have to decide who jungles and who mids. By then, it would probably be who picks first, but as they're both theorhetically equally good at both roles, they could make some sort of compromise.

I believe these two little additions could enhance Champion Selection's experience positively without having to use drastic measures like Prisoner's Island, or meta-enforcing measures like Vote Kicking.


TL ; DR Add roles for players in order of efficiency in Champion Selection and enforce the Air Client processus to feel more important (see annoying).


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DMackattack

Junior Member

03-13-2013

I like the idea for queuing up for a certain roll. Does it seem to "enforce" the meta? Sure. BUT, when you get in champ select, there is team chat. "Hey, they picked XYZ champ, prob top lane, lets go with champ ABC and champ DEF and duo top! It should shut XYZ down!" Just cause I qued up as a certain roll doesn't mean it can't "change" in champ select. OF COURSE i do see the negative side of it. Say that did go down, and I'm mid, and I say "Sure I'll duo top" well now things get shifted all around and now we gotta pray everyone is down with shifting rolls and what not.

Still I find picking your role before champ select a good idea. I've been in plenty of games where I've called mid only to have 1st pick or someone else take it and go "READ THE RULES! IT'S IN THE TRIBUNAL. PICK ORDER OVER CALL. STFU!". Even if I say "that's fine I'll fill" I'll get a "damn right" or some other stupid remark. Another time, 1st pick went with the whole "read the tribunal", yet still let me take mid, and then raged all game (from the start) in all chat and refused to help me (he was jungle). By FAR the worst experience I had in a game and almost quit LoL after that game.

I'm glad that you guys are taking people's opinions on this though. It's a tough decision on what's the "right" answer as any of the options (and other options being brought up) could be right but with how much "wrong." Pros and cons and what have you.

Thanks for taking our input.


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Manifest Omen

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Champion Selection
If there was a post ban time where team talks about roles, etc and maybe choose order of the players and first pick, last pick etc. One of the reasons champion select is hard is because the fact not everyone have every champ,rune pages and runes to play those roles.

Champion select "plays" like not letting know who our top and mid lane champs are can't be done if players dont have the champs. As far as champion select, picking a role, comp., or First....Last pick,swap lane,2v1 lane, adding more time can solve some the problems maybe. Can also have a option to select roles u can play, (Top, Mid, Support), (Top,Jungle, Support),(Mid,Support),(Fill) etc etc. Fact that no one wants support is the fact that it can be difficult to carry a game. I Would say those who choose support as main role ge first pick or something but people would take advantage of it but can also go by the champs you play as well to support the fact your a main support or something but there can be many ways to play this game it can be difficult.

Meta Shifting MatchMaking
-Double jungle, Double mid, No jungle, Double Adc, 1v2, 2v1 etc

Role MatchMaking(recommend)
-Support, ADC, Top, Mid, Jungle
this is the best would stop some toxic players, there been times people just insta-lock a role so they dont do a certain role, and end up losing the lane most the top first pick top lane pickers... Normals there was this one time gettting in a match with 4 premade team and they tried to force a role on me which we all know is support, but for ppl who duo, make premade teams,(2,3,4) should be fillers not im doing this bcuz im duo or because this premade team so screw you and do what we say or no one is happy, toxic players tend to be the auto locker, premade team/duo people which sets up the game for being toxic

One option i thought of is changing the requirements for rank play, i would say more rune pages etc, which is now one of the many issues thats already a topic.

Or give more time to communicate

@ Lyte


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Sarkhon

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Still nothing on whether or not Riot even acknowledges what adding pregame and post game chat to tribunal would do. Seems typical at this point, answer the posts they don't agree with and ignore the logical ones.


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sxeQ

Member

03-13-2013

I think a very helpful first step would be to scale back the penalty for dodging.

IMO it would start with 0 LP/5 minutes, then 3 LP/10 minutes, and continue up for there. I've found that almost every time, if I am forced to dodge a queue, by the time I get back into queue the people causing the issues are no longer there and everything goes fine. Removing the LP penalty for the first dodge would give players a little more wiggle room to not get involved in a game that looks awful, but at the same time still discourages repeated dodging.

Edit: And yes! Lyte - what exactly is the reasoning behind not being able to report pre-game, and not having Champ Select included with the Tribunal? I'm honestly curious, because there must be some reason beyond "we haven't gotten to it yet".