Let's talk about Champ Select

First Riot Post
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Fisherman Fizz

Senior Member

03-13-2013

I'd like to see better ways of letting players communicate their champ select preferences with other players. Right now the only way is to just type it in chat which leads to people racing to type "mid" first and just causes lots of arguments. It'd be neat if there was a way to automatically display a player's preferences next to their name on the left of the screen, but in a way that DOESN'T make any mention of lanes whatsoever. I have two ideas that would do that:

1. Allowing a player to go into their profile and pick a few champions as their favorites. When entering into a queue, the portraits of the 3 (or some other number) champions that they marked as their favorite would show up next to their name in the lobby and be immediately visible to everyone, without having to type out anything.

So if I were to go into champion select doing this, by my name it'd show the portraits for Fizz, Twitch, and Draven and people getting into a lobby with me would instantly be able to see that those are my favorite 3 champions.

2. This is very similar to the first idea, but rather than using champions, a player would select a few of the tags Riot uses to classify champions (assassin, support, jungler, fighter, etc.) and those tags would display by their name in the lobby, or there could be another option that just says "no preference" as well. This way a player would have a way to immediately show his teammates what type of champions he prefers to play without locking those types into a specific lane or role.

So if I went into a game, the other players would easily be able to see that I prefer to play Assassins the most, Carries second, and Supports third.

I'd want a feature like this to be picked by the player and not just automatically generated based off their number of games played or win rates though. Especially if there isn't a large sample of games played by the person, it wouldn't be as accurate as just letting the player pick their preferences themselves. It might also be a good idea to give players one option to say a champion or role that they DON'T like playing or are bad at. So, if someone isn't good at jungling they could easily communicate that to their team.

I think this would accomplish a similar goal to the Dungeon Finder idea but with less drawbacks.


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MephyRunsAllDay

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harib View Post
@Lyte
I'll just keep asking:
Is inforcing a single meta in soloq actaully a bad thing?
It goes against the concept that strategies are made by players, not by the developers.


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ViRus Deleo

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Coming from being a former toxic player, I've felt to best way to reform is to be around positive players. Now I may be one of those unique snow flakes that learns from my peers around me or is aware of my behavior and reformed, but I personally don't see the Prisoners Island working for the fact is negative players will learn to accept negativity and verbal abuse as the norm and probably if never reform. I think you're new idea coming out that flags toxic players with limited chat ability instead of banning may actually solve champ select.
If you cant learn to communicate correctly if you're flagged you'll never get anything done.


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alaskaneagle

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by davin View Post
We actually agree here. Players are rather in favor of this, probably because it's a pretty intuitively appealing approach ("just put jerks with jerks and let them be jerks forever / change to get out!"). From research we've done we know that players think this is a good idea (close to 75% of players, actually!). Lyte can talk some about why from a behavior standpoint it might actually end up doing more harm than good.
54367

I don't like the "prisoner island" idea either. I think it would add a new type of "elo hell" discussion and would become "honor hell" or something catchy like that.

It also seems like it would make the problem grow in the long run; player's main account dips into prison island so he is constantly bombarded with hostility which is returned since everyone there are hostile. So he makes a new account and gets it up but keeps playing his main which infuriates him every time he gets on it so he starts raging on the new account too. Without any real encentive to keep the new account once it drops he simply makes a new account and the cycle goes on like that. The result is he can never be happy on his main account, which he's put to much work in to delete, and is harassed so much he takes it as the norm and always rages on every new account...

I have other reasons but this is probably enough on it.


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FunkyBunch

Senior Member

03-13-2013

How about you just make it so support is more fun? Or even get rid of support entirely?
The major problem with support is that you get no gold, and with the small amount of gold you do get, you have to buy wards (a far greater percentage of you gold than it is for other players).

You also basically HAVE to buy Runic Bulwark, Philo's Stone, Sightstone etc.

In WoW, healing was fun and took a decent amount of skill. It doesn't really take much skill to wander around the map placing wards. Usually your "heals" are so slow/underpowered they tend not to change a team fight dynamic.

Let me do cool things as a support. (Place walls, set up plays, etc).
AKA let me get more gold! If support wasn't so boring, no one would fight over it.


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Biaznatch

Junior Member

03-13-2013

I think players last 3 games should be shown when you scroll over thier name in champ select. Not just how they did but the comp they were up against and evryones ending scores just to help give you some info on whats going on with that person.

I don't think assigning roles like WoW dungeon queue is a good idea. It allows people to never learn other roles and increases queue time for desired roles. You have a crippling issue with your META and thats that Support is boring, poor, and often looked at as a punishment. Just like healing in WoW and so dungeons only queued when someone "bit the bullet." Fix how supports work and maybe this would be a valid idea.

I think a better idea would be to randomize peoples picks, by this i mean for every ban and every pick turn someone from your team is randomly selected. This forces teams to communicate and be active during the champ select phase it also gets rid of the I called it pick order bs at the start of the game and makes things more dynamic. I know if I am bottom pick I often alt tab to something else and let everyone fight it out as I am basically forced to support but if it was random man anything goes.

I would even be in favor of you randomly assigning roles to pick orders, or making it so at least 2 people from your team have to agree to your pick it would stop troll picks and if someone was all "I swear it works well thier match history is right there to prove it. It would at least force people to play every role i.e. get better at playing.

But until you make support rewarding someone is always going to feel like they "lost."


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Cliftonix

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Member

03-13-2013

Whatever dota is doing, copy it.


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risico

Junior Member

03-13-2013

I think the main issue is that so many people want solo lanes. Just make an option for people that only want to play a solo lane and you eliminate a vast majority of the toxicity in champ select.


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Anrita

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Okay, I've fleshed out my idea of customized preference matchmaking a bit, and here's where I'm at now. You could customize how you're willing to play on up to 5 types of data:

* Team compositions
* Team distributions
* Roles
* Lane dynamics
* Positions


Also, you could save your selections multiple times as different named presets, so that depending on your mood you could search for specific types of games.

Here's an example of a single profile:

Name: Mage/Support

Team compositions:
* mage, tank, carry, support, assassin
* bruiser, tank, carry, support, assassin
* mage, tank, bruiser, carry, assassin
* mage, tank, carry, support x2

Team distributions:
* solo top, solo mid, duo bot, jungle
* duo top, solo mid, duo bot
* solo top, solo mid, solo bot, jungle, roam

Roles:
* mage
* support

Lane dynamics:
* solo
* no creep score duo
* shared creep score duo

Positions:
* mid
* bot

Thoughts?

Edit: probably should add a 6th option for specific champions, at least in game modes without bans

Edit #2: maybe another option for goals, e.g. "play to win", "play to learn", "play for fun"


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Stingers135

Junior Member

03-13-2013

So I'm gonna try and work with you. The key note here is co-operation, right? So let's look at the differences between offline cooperation and online cooperation.

Offline, there are consequences to your actions. People will recognize and remember you for behaving badly.

Online, there are no consequences for your actions. There are millions of people on League, and odds are slim that you'll be matched up with very many people that you've played with again. And even when it happens, odds are slimmer that you even remember you've played with that person before (I pretty much only remember people with weird usernames lol).

This leads to a divide in perceived risk - "Oh, well if I act like a jerk to these guys in champ select, nothing bad can happen to me. Nobody can punch me in the face for acting like a jerk. Nobody can decide they don't want to be around me anymore, we're stuck together until the end where we'll then part ways forever anyway."

If we think of champ select as just another part of the game, during that stage the 4 other members on your team are really your enemies - they are potentially standing in the way of stopping you from getting the role you really want to get. This leads to the evolutionary stable strategy of being an *******. There's no counterplay for it. More often then not, being an ******* leads to increased rewards for the *******. As long as the environment is set up to facilitate this risk/reward imbalance, toxicity in champ select will continue to exist.

So we've identified the problem - imbalanced risk/reward in favor of toxic players getting what they want. To identify the solution, we need to find a task that balanced risk/reward back in favor of non-toxic players, while not giving these toxic players any more tools to avoid having to cooperate.

As has been stated, vote kicking gives power to toxic players as well as normal players. However, the vote kicking system still only gives power to the majority - whether they are "toxic" or "normal" matters not to the system. In this regard, you can consider the vote kicking system a scalar increase in "power" (ability to get the role they desire) for both sides of the spectrum. This does not balance it, however. Being an ******* will still get you what you want if the majority of players will not ally against you. And you can be a normal player and get punished by a majority of toxic players.

The way I see it, in order to give power back to the normals and take some away from the toxics, I would suggest a combination of two things:
1) A tribunal rating system where players more oft reported have a higher tribunal score
2) A FULL switch to a pick-order dominated system. Call order will no longer matter at all. Make it official. And then pick order will be organized by the people with the lowest tribunal score (least reports) on top, and going down from there.

This means that players who knowingly act in a toxic matter will steadily see themselves fall down in the pick order ladder, meaning they get to play what they want less and less. This will, over time, balance the "power" in selecting your desired role more towards players that get reported less. This seems, to me, to be the desired goal.

I'd love to hear feedback on this, as I think its a somewhat original idea and I can't think of any negatives to this system off the top of my head, other then that people can still choose to ignore the pick order standard and troll and say MID OR FEED and all that. However, over a period of time, as pick order settles into the collective consciousness of the "correct" way to play, and people realize that being an ******* will get them lower on the totem pole, people will adjust their behaviors accordingly.