Let's talk about Champ Select

First Riot Post
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gr1m5

Senior Member

03-13-2013

I think you guys are spot on in saying that the conflict arises from one player being confident in a certain role and wanting to perform his best. When I duo queue with my brother, I always ask him what he would like to play because I can absolutely trust him to perform well in any role. When someone else says they want to play a jungler, I'm a bit more apprehensive of them taking that role because I have no idea how well they perform as a jungler.

Perhaps what we need is a better and more visible statistics system. Of course this won't be perfect, especially for people who haven't played many games, but it could help alleviate at least SOME anxiety over how well a player will perform in a certain role.

Take this scenario for example.

Player 1 enters the lobby and calls AD Carry
Player 2 calls Mid
Player 3 calls Jungle
Player 4 calls Mid
Player 5 calls Top

Player 4 clicks on Player 2's summoner icon in champion select and sees that Player 2 has a very high win rate with Annie. Instead of anxious about Player 2 going mid, they can take another role knowing that Player 2 will likely perform well. (this will require some redoing of the champion select UI)

Of course, some people will still insist on going solo mid, but I think this might be the least drastic way to perhaps alleviate *some* of the stress during champion select.

I'm thinking we could have some sort of interface which displays stats with certain champions, general summoner stats and recommended roles, that could be accessed by clicking on the summoner's icon in champion select.

Also, maybe allow some more time during champion select to allow for discussion.


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davin

Senior User Researcher

03-13-2013
23 of 55 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogaflow View Post
I'm sad that my idea got buried. The ideas Lyte and crew put on the table scare me, they don't do anything to support positive behavior in the slightest.... We need far more support for actually being a good player then more threats, scares and punishments for bad behavior. When in doubt always follow the core rule for rule breakers. Risk vs. Reward. If you raise the risk but the reward still sucks then nothing is likely to happen. You need to both raise the risk AND reward at the same time to have any real effect.
Basing pick order on Honor as you suggested is an interesting idea, but ultimately would likely result in similar ambiguity. Part of what we're interested in is removing system-level affordances that create ambiguity and allow for bad behavior to manifest. Which is very much about encouraging positive behavior, not creating new punishments


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Varlom

Junior Member

03-13-2013

1)whate!!!you gonna play heimerdinger??? plz votekick troll pick
2)Forced meta
3) i am ok with this


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LeVentNoir

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Some games I'm happy to take whatever.

Some games I just want to play a single role, and would not even consider playing unless I got that role.

The second usually comes after the first when I have to deal with some braindead idiot. Sure, I'll support, adc is a moron, next game if I don't get adc I wouldn't even want to play.

I suggest that you have rolecall matchmaking by income streams only. Top, Mid, Bot, Jungle, Freelance.

I also suggest that you have vote kick so if someone chants "It's feeding time" and tries to support veigar, you can kick them.


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TheFriendlyUncle

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Make it so the player's match history/rank history is available for viewing. Like a simplified version of what you would normally see when you check other people's profile. As of now, we have no way of checking other player's role and/or match history without having to go on lolking.

Calling out as 4th pick saying i main mid and have a 70% win rate as fizz, will no longer draw comments like: "lol, i bet you suck as mid"

I would imagine this can be rather easy to implement as well. Just a thought, dont downvote lol


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Sarkhon

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Here's my solution to champion select. Simply add the pre-game and post game chat to the Tribunal and wait and see if that fixes anything. Currently there is 0 incentive for me to be nice in the champ select because I can either get what I want, or I can make them dodge and try again. They can always report me, but when it gets to the tribunal, who's to say that it's even legit that I trolled them? Adding the pre-game chat however, and suddenly you get some context. You get context to maybe why people played poorly (i.e, they got stuck with a role they mentioned to their team they weren't very good/fond of), why they weren't the happiest in game (someone raged at them for locking in w//e), and most importantly, you give the solo players protection from Quad Queu of doom where they force you into a position you don't want to play, or trolling you when you are first pick/first ban first call and you lock in something that they wanted to play.

TL;DR - Pre-game chat and Post Game chat. See what results that yields first. Get the hidden toxics out of the game.


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Lethminite

Senior Member

03-13-2013

I'm not a fan of any of these suggestions, all theirs con are just too huge.

Vote kick, especially with LoLking existing, even if you don't us their win rates, people will get them, and people will kick based on 'bad' LoLking stats.
And if you ever did a dungeon is WoW after vote to kick was added, everyone auto accepts just to avoid fights, one person leaves, so they can't complain, and the other person gets their way, if you vote no, those two instantly start fighting and the whole run goes down the toilet.

Queuing on roles has too many problems too
If you made a super complicated role list "kill lane support", "double jungle" "all ADC" where you could queue not only for your role, but acceptable mutations to your team as a whole so the problem of locking in the metagame wasnt a problem. You would still have the problem of liers, you occationally get that in wow, the ret pally that queues as a tank, then expects someone else to tank because he doesn't have tank gear, and just hopes someone else does, or if someone leaves they can then requeue with him as dps, but be ontop of the list because the group is in progress.

In the quad queue i play in lots, one of our players is quite childish, and when it's his turn to play support, he just locks in riven and doesn't even buy wards, wont even buy a damn sight stone, goes bot and "kill lane suports" ending the laning phase super quick so he can roam and get CS off pushed lanes then plays like he was top all along.
You are damn right people are going to do this type of thing if support role is quicker queue, and I can imagine mid queue will be quite a bit longer than support.

Prisoner's island isn't really anything, that seems like something to do for people repeatedly punished, but not something that would effect a significant % of the playerbase.

I think one thing you could do to help, atleast in normals is buff IP gains for a loss, and change "win of the day" into "game of the day" or some variation of it.
If there is less focus on "I HAVE TO WIN" and more just "lets give it our best" you'll get less raging.

TF2 for example see's very little raging "we have 5 spy's" being about the worst you'll see, winning and losing is meaningless there, you just play for fun and be rewarded for time.
Maybe a casual queue where win/loss IP is equal could give people who've had a bad day a place to just have fun, where you really can just say "who cares, it's casual's" and hopefully they'll stay out of ranked.
It could be a magical land where smite/revive support yi trolls can live next to AD malzahar who are actually good, and if you lose, requeue it's all the same anyway.
Only problem is because LoL snowballs losing isn't really fun, but if there is no pressure to win, maybe it wont be so bad, losing ARAMs doesn't feel bad to me atleast.


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Solari Eclipse

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Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by davin View Post
I like the idea of knowing what people don't like playing against. Helps them inform the Captain what they don't like in Draft. I think we're all used to the rapid calling of champions during the ban phase. Sometimes resulting in accidental bans of a champion someone is trying to say they're planning on playing.
Since it was brought up, Can we get ban pings or marks, "Requests." Marks the champ portrait for all and the number of requests for that champ. Limit it to 2 per player. First pick still makes bans. Something like this?


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Harib

Member

03-13-2013

1) Vote Kick - NO!!! People will spend more time trying to vote kick, than actaully picking roles and communicating.
2) WoW Dungeon Finder. With a condition that you can queue up for multiple roles. For example checking boxes for "Jungle, Top, Mid". Once the game finds 5 players with every role covered it will assign what role you take (or let players choose if several people cover several same roles). Supports will have easier time with this. And if you're only playing one role (mid), tough luck. The more roles you play. the easier it is to queue up.
3) Prisoner’s Island As a short-term punishment being sent to this for a week: "see, what kind of an ass you are?". After leaving such a cesspool and getting into normal queues people might think, "huh, this aint so bad, maybe I should try be more calm too?"


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Hennedo

Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
1) Real-Life Context | This scenario really illustrates how context outside the game can influence behavior inside the game. Traditionally, game studios don’t design or solve for context. Or can they?

2) In-Game Context | This scenario illustrates the conflict between Pick Order and Call Order. When there are literally no guidelines, at best, half of the players believe in Pick Order and half believe in Call Order—we’ve created a situation where conflicts are expected rather than rare.

3) Time Pressure | From psychology, we know that time pressure sometimes twists context in hostile ways. Players in Champ Select are effectively trying to negotiate with each other over individual goals (i.e, what role I want to play this game) that overlap with team goals (i.e, given this set of teammates, what’s the best strategy for us to win?). Studies suggest that throwing time pressure in there is like adding fuel to the fire—the end result is more disagreements and lower quality of negotiations.

4) Cognitive Biases | Hopefully davin will talk more about this, but people show cognitive bias in many ways. For example, many of us enter Champ Select thinking we are the best at whatever role we want to play—this is statistically impossible; however, there’s no reason to trust any of the strangers in the lobby. This really isn’t the players’ fault, it’s simply being human.

These are some major problems with Champ Select that we’ve identified in our research. So what’s next? A lot of players have suggested the following:

1) Vote Kick | Players want the ability to vote kick toxic players from Champ Select.
2) WoW Dungeon Finder | Players want the ability to queue up for a particular role like “Healer” and “DPS” and placed into a Champ Select with a team
3) Prisoner’s Island | Players want matchmaking to pair toxic players with toxic players, and positive players with positive players.
Real life context, in game context, time pressure, and cognitive bias: these structural issues seem to point to a greater need for organization of the experience prior to champ select. This would be: calming to those otherwise agitated in their lives (the game takes care of the rough edges and I just get to play and chillax), remove the conflicts between players from their direct interactions and instead make it the basis for a preordered system (the player expresses their difference in selecting what they want to play rather than in champ select arguments with their team, the game sets them up with a team, and the context for negative intra-team conflict in champ select is avoided), fewer things are necessary to negotiate within the time available, and problems with cognitive bias are minimized through previous role selection (everyone thinks they picked correctly).

So I'm agreeing with the people calling for a "dungeon finder" fix that fits with LoL. The problems with that strategy are in the "making it fit with LoL" part. What I could see is a two part system: one set of options puts you with other players that choose them (aoe, poke, meta, non-meta, etc.), and the other establishes player role within teams and so differentiates them from other players (tank, adc, apc, support, jungle, etc.). You could check boxes for your preferred role and team comp. For example: check in tank and jungle under roles, and check in meta for preferred team comp. Could call it something other than "meta" so as not to encourage the, um, meta (lol). Could also make team comp more or less binding based on other settings available to the user (ex: a check box that says "only this team comp," where, if unchecked, it would be marked as a preference but not a necessity).