Let's talk about Champ Select

First Riot Post
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Riot Wittrock

QA Analyst

03-13-2013

I already made a pretty detailed post about about the negatives of a role-queue system, and as a WoW player, let me tell you why a pre-game vote kick system is even worse.

This explanations going to be a lot less detailed than my previous post, simply because it's not as complicated to see why vote kick has more negativity than positivity.

Let me start by saying, there are some good things about a vote kick system. If someone joins a lobby and is overly profane, arrogant, or overall annoying, the immediate negative re-enforcement of them getting kicked out of the lobby and having to re-queue makes sense. And players get to make all the shot-calls, right? So how bad can a system be where four people have to agree to kick one person?

Really, really bad.

Think about it this way. You get into champ select. First pick goes ADC. And your third pick really wanted ADC. Maybe 3rd pick said something, maybe they didn't. But now's their time to pounce.

"I played with 1st pick yesterday, they went 0-12. (lie)"

Option: "Would you like to kick [1st pick]? Reason: feeder"

[yes] [no]

Now I'm sure the morality police out there would all claim that they'd hit no because why punish someone based on an unsubstantiated claim.

But you wouldnt. You would hit yes every time. I know I would. Why? Because it's no risk.

You've been in the lobby maybe 30 seconds, and you know requeueing to find an ADC takes all of 5 seconds. Weigh that vs the possibility that your first pick is telling the truth, it's just easier to kick and move on.

Even if this doesn't happen all too often, when it does, it's brutal, and leaves a pretty hefty negative taste in the guy who got kicked's mouth. He did literally nothing wrong and was punished. Even if it only takes him 5 seconds to find another game, trust me, that negativity sticks.


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CiaphasCainX

Senior Member

03-13-2013

I really do think queuing for a lane is the best option. Or queuing for two (Say, Top & Support), with a preference for one or the other. While it's true that there's no guarantee that, lets say you want Akali mid, your team will approve of it, I really do think it's the best place to start with.

I honestly think teams are far more willing to cooperate over champion select, than role select. I think you'd be far more likely to see a team that has pre-determined roles (A queue defined top, mid, adc, etc.) agree to play say, protect the Kog'Maw, than if they were all fighting over both role AND champion.

Is it a perfect solution? No, most definitely not. But it would make for a good spring board to encourage other cooperation measures.


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CaptainAMorgan

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by davin View Post
It's a pretty drastic shift to how people currently think about the game, but it is a reflection of how the game mechanics influence behavior. Freelancer is a pretty dope name for a support However, I'm not sure how much people would accept a Freelancer who is rolling around as a double-jungle gold-absorber. It gets back to the issue of whatever you do, the team has to be ok with it too. Since it's not only about your choice, it's about the four other player's desires and expectations.
Big issue with this being that you guys have created the current expectations and they are nigh cemented into the game


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Meisterbrau

Junior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by davin View Post
I think that gets at one of the general needs of champion select remedies--information that allows you to make an informed decision. In the absence of information, bullying your way into the role you want (MID OR FEED) is a yucky approach, but one that it's easy to see why someone would arrive at (they want to succeed, they don't know anything about the other players, and they're pretty sure they're better than other players).

There's a bunch of other ideas thus far about what information is needed to make an informed decision and form a successful team in champ select. Preferred role/style is one, I suspect past success is another people would desire (but that might get super aggro player behavior wise). What are others?

Yeah, plz don't ever show my stats and don't show me my teammates stats before the match.

Don't want my own confirmation bias to kick in

What might be useful:
- Champions I don't like playing against.
-> A general consensus about this in the team would lead to 3 quick and easy bans.


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yoshiwaan

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Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ektomorf View Post
good in theory.

But who wants to sit there for 2 minutes to talk, then another 5 minutes for everyone to select their champions, only to have someone dodge.

2 more minutes = 2 more minutes of people arguing/trolling/raging.

Voteban.. noones agrees = no bans? Doesn't work
To be honest, I would happily wait a few extra minutes per game if it means having a good team. If you could decide to go into the game or not at this point without any penalty (flagging the player who caused you to leave for some sort of issue if you do leave) that would be ideal.
If everyone is agreeable then you all click to go into champ select.
There would need to be tweaking around this to stop people abusing it. You should still probably get a dodge time penalty for leaving but no points penalty.

I'm not sure about votebans though, I think 1st pick has bans is fine.


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davin

Senior User Researcher

03-13-2013
21 of 55 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by xRustySpoon View Post
I don't actually like the "WoW Dungeon Finder" solution. When I queue up for ranked, I normally don't have a preference for what I play. If we need a top this particular game, I'll play top with no problems. If the next game someone calls top, mid, and jungler, I'll gladly play ADC and do just as fine as I did top lane. I don't want to be forced into deciding what role I'm going to play before I even find a game.
This is definitely something to be cognizant of with any solution that is role/lane/champ pre-call based. There's a decently-sized chunk of players who are happy to do whatever the team needs. Reactive picking is also a core component of the game when it comes to Draft Pick.


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ForrestFyr

Member

03-13-2013

I often see players refer to the summoners code claiming it has something in it on picking order (which it doesn't of course) but this is a good idea. Dont mistake me, im not suggesting pick order become the iron rule here but riot needs to take a stance on this so that there is some sort of fair way to determine who goes where. I feel like the WoW style queueing wouldnt work because certain roles would have extremely long queue times, people are bound to change their mind about what they want to play, and certain counters will make choosing the champion you intended to play impossible. the votekick system seems to be the best choice as of now because it is peer given feedback and works in a similar way to the tribunal.

Closing thoughts (TL;DR): Riot needs to provide some way for players with good intentions to solve these champ select disputes by taking a stance on who should be able to pick the role they want (it may mean pick order is law). If that means including KDA ratio, honor/report ratio in games, or other similar factors to improve the matchmaking and give more significance to earlier picks it should be considered.


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Winno

Senior Member

03-13-2013

i think that if in champ select it would show the roles you are comfortable with playing other than typing it would help alot.

Some people goes afk or are alt tabbed during champ select then dont get their role ending in trollin etc...


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PontiacDream

Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Status Kwoh View Post
I actually disagree. I think that the fear and concern that players have around role and champ select stems from a very natural place of wanting to do their best and have the team do their best.

Let's look at the typical situation. I drop into champ select with the firm knowledge of being awesome at my favorite role or champion but with zero knowledge of how good anyone else is at the other roles. If I have a known, high, level of confidence in my ability but zero knowledge of another player's ability, how much confidence and trust do I have in them taking it over me?

That thought process is usually where this behavior stems from. This is why we need to find strong and healthy ways for the game to smooth these situations out.

How can we help people feel more confident and build trust with their teammates pre-game so that players don't feel the pressure that can lead to negative outbursts? This is the sort of discussions Lyte and I have been having a lot here at the office.

In other strategy games with lobby systems, it was often possible to see what your skill was in relation to your allies.

In this game, ELO and league rank and basic stats are hidden from each other in champ select.

If I joined a game and I saw that my ELO is 1500 and my ally is 1800, I'll probably defer to him as to what champ he would like to play. If he wants to do something that breaks the meta, I'll trust him to do it.

I think the lack of information coupled with the short window of time to make an important decision are the key factors here.


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Baxter900

Senior Member

03-13-2013

I don't know how much this would help, but by prioritizing people you've won a game with and telling the player that they won a game with that other person, I feel that it would help. It would overall give players more trust in their teammates. Just a thought though I think it would work. Any feedback would be nice.