Let's talk about Champ Select

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

CaptainAMorgan

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by davin View Post
We are It's a really busy thread, so we can't reply to everyone, but we are reading like crazy. Thank you for everyone's thoughts, we'll be in for a good bit longer. Marathoooon.
Re-posts are going to be inevitable!

I hope we get something really really fast!
I expect too much


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Crownface

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
When discussing Prisoner's Island, this is an extremely important point. Let's consider a thought exercise:

1) Let's put 1 toxic player with 9 positive players
- In this scenario, does the toxic player improve his behavior over time, or do we simply ruin the experiences of 9 positive players?

2) Let's put 10 toxic players together
- In this scenario, do any of the toxic players ever improve their behavior?

A core philosophy on the player behavior team is to make features that help toxic players reform. In many ways, a Prisoner's Island feature encourages the opposite of reform.

Prisoner's Island also creates some pretty weird scenarios for players. When players browse through the Tribunal Ban Inquiries forum, there are numerous players who use excessive verbal abuse and racial slurs in their matches; however, they lack the self-awareness or necessary feedback to understand how negative their behavior is. If these same players are on Prisoner's Island, how many of them would understand why they were there, or how to get out? If players don't believe they deserve to be on Prisoner's Island and every other player there is just a jerkwad, doesn't this encourage them to make new accounts to start over, off Prisoner's Island?

If this scenario happens, what was the point of creating Prisoner's Island?
Players who are banned just make new accounts anyways, and continue to ruin their experience for new players.

You could make getting into the prison island a lot easier than getting banned, since the players can still play, so if smurf accounts continue their negative behavior, they just get placed right back in there.

I don't get how you can say that toxic players often don't realize how negative their behavior actually is, and then say that 9 positive players might be able to have an impact on that one toxic player. I don't have the kinds of data that you have, of course, but I would expect the genuinely toxic players who don't understand the negativity of their own behavior wouldn't be influenced by positive players at all, because they wouldn't understand how positive their behavior is.

Prison island isn't just a place for jerks to play with jerks, it also comes with longer queues, higher stress, and a higher chance to be placed with trolls who will cause them to lose games. If they want to get out of it rather than just having all their accounts end up in prison together, they'll have to reform their behavior. No one is happy playing with people who have genuinely negative behavior; there might be a few people who view being in prison island as being in 'hardcore' League, where they have to toughen up and be as toxic as ever to protect themselves, but the players who just don't understand what they're doing wrong might see themselves in a whole different light if they keep ending up in prison island.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Malrock3

Senior Member

03-13-2013

I would like to suggest that one of the reasons champ select can be so rough is because people feel forced to communicate only the role they think they are best at, and no one talks about what other roles they believe they could validly fill. Why not force people to rank their proficiency in all 5 roles and some how display that in champ select, so that everyone can see them. This way at a glance everyone can see exactly what roles the players each believe they excel in. This would be a good starting point for a team discussion to begin.

I think this is a good starting point in forcing people to communicate with their team mates and trying to work together. That way the whole team can be involved in the conversation about whom should go where each time. For this to work however you must change the champ select lobby to have some sort of icon which can be quickly viewed and recognized by the general public to determine who is good at what role.

My own icon rankings would probably be adc>Jungle>mid>support>top


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

MiziiziM

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
If these same players are on Prisoner's Island, how many of them would understand why they were there, or how to get out? If players don't believe they deserve to be on Prisoner's Island and every other player there is just a jerkwad, doesn't this encourage them to make new accounts to start over, off Prisoner's Island?

If this scenario happens, what was the point of creating Prisoner's Island?
If they are aware they are on a Prisoner's Island, then surely they must be aware that there is a way out besides creating a new account.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

davin

Senior User Researcher

03-13-2013
19 of 55 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeelzeBuff View Post
So Lyte is discussing queuing for roles, but is worried that it will cement the meta.

And it will. If people HAVE to queue for "Mid, ADC, Support, etcetc" then the meta will be even less dynamic than it is now.

But why be so specific? Let's just call each role what it is. A gold income stream.

There are 4 gold income streams. Top lane, Mid lane, Bot lane, and the Jungle. So have a queue for each of them.

But there are five people. What about the fifth queue? What we commonly call "supports?"

Call them a FREELANCER. They either share another player's gold stream (duo CS lanes, double jungle), or get gold only passively through objectives and kills. (supports, roamers)

"But why do they get such a cool name?"

Because they're the coolest people. Support 4 lyfe 4 mah streets.

If anything, this will INCREASE diversity. People will realize that lane swaps and changes aren't a big deal. Solo queue stagnation will start to look more like pro innovation. New strats will be tried.

And hell, absolute worst case is everything stays the same, except supports get called "Freelancers" instead. That's not a bad worst case scenario, AND IT SOLVES THE QUEUES.
It's a pretty drastic shift to how people currently think about the game, but it is a reflection of how the game mechanics influence behavior. Freelancer is a pretty dope name for a support However, I'm not sure how much people would accept a Freelancer who is rolling around as a double-jungle gold-absorber. It gets back to the issue of whatever you do, the team has to be ok with it too. Since it's not only about your choice, it's about the four other player's desires and expectations.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Lyte

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Lead Social Systems Designer

Follow RiotLyte on Twitter

03-13-2013
20 of 55 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheUnburned View Post
Of all 3 of those methods listed, I think that a vote-kick is the most needed right now. I understand that people don't want vote kick to be used to kick players going against the meta or something like that, but the fact is that if it's UNANIMOUS that the other 4 players on the team don't want to be subjected to playing with that person, they shouldn't have to spend 20 minutes in a game that's not enjoyable or face a dodge penalty.

The fact is this: If there's a dodge penalty, there needs to be a vote kick option. Otherwise you're forcing players to suffer consequences for trolls and non-team-players. They either have to face the dodge penalty, or take up a "don't let the trolls win" mentality and play out the game anyway.

I think role queuing will always be a problem for a game like this, because it's very hard to avoid supporting one team comp over another. Queueing needs to be as vague as possible to allow for unique team compositions.

Although there are some decent ideas on that subject in my thread on the topic here.
We've tested many different queue penalties in the history of League of Legends. If you don't have any penalties at all, queue dodge rates skyrocket. Players leave for many diverse reasons:

- perhaps the team composition wasn't optimal
- perhaps the opposing team composition was too strong
- perhaps they didn't get their role
- perhaps they didn't get their champion
- perhaps someone was being toxic
- perhaps someone was AFK
- perhaps the Captain didn't do the drafting the way the team wanted
- perhaps a perceived OP champion was chosen by the enemy team
- perhaps a perceived UP champion was chosen by a teammate

What happens is you have more lobbies that end in a queue dodge than actually enter a game. However, when we introduced stronger penalties, queue dodge rates dropped by 50%. Changing and tweaking queue dodge penalties is an extremely tricky science. On one hand, we want players to be able to have an opt-out mechanism to get out of games that are definitely not going to be fun; however, if we have no penalties at all, the actual time it takes a player to hit "Play" and enter the game after several lobbies increases dramatically past 10 minutes. Micro-managing Champ Select lobbies really isn't that fun, and we don't want to encourage it.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

milllo

Senior Member

03-13-2013

This is really thinking outside the box idea. I am not saying it is good, just that it is different. Solo queue ranked is supposed to measure skill to compare with other players. So how about it be changed so that when you enter lobby, one of the champs in your list is selected for you and you are stuck with it. Then the team spends the time discussing how to strategize with the group rather than fighting about who plays what.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

reallyslowloader

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Is it to much to ask that after a long day of college to go into matchmaking and actually play the role I want without having to fight for it.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Taobender uvWoW

Senior Member

03-13-2013

GREAT IDEAS....we really need to know what roles we're going in B4 we que

maybe give IP bonuses for unpopular roles


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Yubell

Member

03-13-2013

Alright, listen these kind of things you need Clairvoyance for, people have no mercy and no sympathy for people who play onlinegames, it's the Internet. This is in games , it's just how it is.almost every one is a ***** when he's faceless, nameless, and with no sense of consciousnesses,

response from the quote

I personally understand that League of legends is a game and a game is meant for entertainment, but league of legends is a highly frustrating game, it's the truth, it's competitive.

there are only 2 ways or several ways a game can go ,

Pure plane fun and enjoyment: games like skyrim, minecraft.
Completive : it's hard it's a race , Meta CS E-sports stress.

IF you want fun do not start up league of legends, if you win fine, good game.
If you lose be it once or twice, you will be depressed and even with it's almost like4chan community.
Even with the tribunal the Toxic behaviour continues. You know why ? because it works at a degree
What is the problem ? the community, who's gonna solve it The community yea good idea let the problem solve the problem. Hell even E-sports gamers Cheated in the finals and some Got even banned due toxic behaviour people with high ello are no different from people who are low or middle ground.
i played more over 2200 LoL games since beta, i like the game. but with the Whole E-sports the game has become a sport

i think it's a good example: sport.

image as kid you start football it's fun with friends for the first months playing for nothing, and then the competitions happen you're getting pumped up, trained. You feel like champ.
Further down the line it's far far far more serious people will shout at you if you make a mistake people will judge you, if you do so, and sometimes you're going to get kicked on the knee, or a ball in your face. and lose some teeth.

this is perfect example of league of legends. it's not a fun game if you lose. it's highly frustrating and quite Frankly starts to make your day Worse. you express your anger, like in sports and then you get send off because the only thing the judge saw was you screaming not what happened before, just your screaming that's why A: the tribunal works at a degree B: get's really really annoying.
Every person with brain will no doubt have concluded that 70% of humanity are tossers, and no i am not saying this because i am mean, you want to prove me wrong then ?

I play vindictus at the point because being a Female with a scythe and killing mobs God of war style in an mmo is so much fun i am Sprouting rainbows.

When a friend asks me to play some League of legends i get even depressed of the memories.

If a game Evokes so much rage so much anger it's not a game any more.

off topic,
the feedback system is a poor design choice.
Ohhhh you lost a game, what's your feedback ! are you serious ? do you really think the community is good enough to give Critical points and honest criticism.

Regards:
Yubell