Let's talk about Champ Select

First Riot Post
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Vsin

Senior Member

03-13-2013

My idea will probably invite rage and downvotes, but I'll try anyways.

-ap

Yes, DotA's All Pick mode. For Ranked.

What I've found is that the overwhelming majority of cases of pregame rage come because "omg I have to support again" or "wtf pick/call order is better" or whatnot. Most of this is caused by people getting RNGed into some given pick position and so they're left out to dry with no real power to solve it. Sure you can ask nicely, but those almost always result in you getting shafted anyways, just with nicer words.

So, in comes All Pick. Basically, you can only see the enemy's champions if they lock in, and any champion that gets locked in is no longer available for anybody else to pick. This probably won't solve the "OP instalock" dodges, but then again those can't really be avoided. The idea is that, much like blinds, your pick order among randoms doesn't matter, and you don't have to rely on someone having XYZ champion you want just so you stand a remote chance of picking him/her. Instead, you can show your desired picks, discuss where you want who to go, etc. You aren't as screwed by time either, what with Draft giving each person 30s to pick, which sometimes only gives you 30s and other times makes you wait for 2 minutes.


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Hydrochoerus

Senior Member

03-13-2013

I like number one, If all 3 or 4 players want that player kicked they get kicked. And you could remove 2-3 man ques


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EmnestyX

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Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
Vote kick is an interesting idea that has been suggested by players for quite awhile; however, what are some of the goals we'd like to accomplish for Champ Select?

One, we want to encourage cooperation in Champ Select. Two, we want players to have an ability to opt-out if they are 'stuck' with players they perceive are toxic or extremely negative. Vote-kick systems tend to give players an opt-out mechanism; however, they do not encourage cooperation.

In fact, in some scenarios vote-kick systems encourage premade groups to bully the strangers in the lobby into specific roles or champions. Given a scenario with 5 strangers, if 4 strangers happen to agree on roles and the 5th doesn't, the 4 strangers are highly likely to collaborate to kick the 5th. Given a vote-kick system, we are likely to see more disagreements than before, and greatly increase the time it takes to get into a game.
wouldn't the solution then to be only let duo q and solo q vote kick, making a 4 man premade not being able to kick the random since they already have the advantage of knowing 1 another and therefore can play as a team as well as playing with the random?


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Viliphied

Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by davin View Post
Let's talk about these two points a little. From a queue time standpoint, a standard-meta queue actually wouldn't be too lengthy. When you take into account the multiple ways of playing support (Tank/Support/Kill Lane) and the players who are fine to fill all roles, you actually have around 15 to 20% of players being down for Jungle and Support (depending region and definition of those roles). So queue time may actually be less of an issue than it'd seem based on the popular perception of those roles as less-favored.
The other problem with this is if someone chooses an unconventional support (say, Nidalee), they could subject themselves to lots of "Y U Q SUPPORT IF U NO PICK SUPPORT" *****ing.


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thenewzero

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Senior Member

03-13-2013

I used to be against the idea of having a "role select" type thing. But I kind of feel like, if you want to use experimental builds and unusual strategies, you should do it with friends anyway. If you do this with random people, you'll have to understand that you'll have a very high rate of failure anyway because your random team mates will not really understand your unusual strategy.

Another minor thing that I think would be nice for a "role finder" type queue (which could be separate) would be if you could have a separate MMR for each role. One thing I've had an issue with is that I really like to play support, and because you never ever have a situation where someone says "support or I feed", I play support almost exclusively. This means I'm pretty good at support and often win games as support. However, I have almost no practice in any other roles. So in situations where I would like to learn another role, I will have to go into the game with the knowledge that I *will* be pitted against someone who is better at their role than me, I *will* lose my lane always, and my teammates *will* be very angry with me. At least until my MMR normalizes for that role and I'm actually fighting people who are at my skill level in that role.

So yeah, if you did go with having a role-based queue, it would be really cool if you could have at least some MMR influence per-role. Like if I win 10 games as Support, but lose 2 as Mid, I don't get pitted against Mid opponents at my Support MMR.


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iMyung

Senior Member

03-13-2013

I think the first step to solving any and all of this is for Riot to first pick a stance: pick order or call order. WIth the caveat: do not be a jerk above all else.

I think this would save a majority of all of the disputes. Is there a reason Riot cannot do this?

Most players aren't set to be toxic when they enter champion select, imo. They genuinely do not know which system they should enforce. Most of the playerbase believe that pick order is how championselect should be executed, and the other part of the playerbase vehemently believe that pick order should be the determining factor. Keep in mind that most of these players aren't spending all their time playing ranked, most of their league of legends career comes from blind pick where you call what you want to play.

When it comes time to champion select, and you have a mixture of pick order vs call order people, trying to settle the argument is like settling a dispute about which God is the real God. It ends up in dogmatic arguments and the nice guy always concedes and loses in the end.

A simple popup tip saying "Remember: In Draft Pick, priority on roles is given to pick order. But above all, don't be a jerk."

The first step to solving all of this is creating a system in championselect where social order can be maintained. The goal with all of this, even a punishment system if we have to, is not to completely remove trolling, it's to mitigate it.


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Sobaskets

Senior Member

03-13-2013

How difficult would it be to provide players in the Champ select screen some BASIC statistics on all players? Information is powerful and indisputable, and average's on performance numbers being known public to all during champ select may help with discussions on who should play what role. Example:

Say the game shows a persons average K/D and Assist numbers. Two people are arguing for ADC, person 1 has a K/D of 8-5-7 while person 2 has a K/D of 3-9-12. Obviously, most people are going to say that 1 will have a better chance at performing their role better than two, who may have a better Jungle/Support play and is just trying to branch out. This info could only be displayed in RANKED, where defeat has more tangible consequences.

To ducktail off of this, if more statistics were made visible, there could be a Promotion Vote (instead of Vote Kick) Example:

There is a huge argument over Top/Mid (we've all seen it) And the ratio's are similar for basic stats. Person 1 is raging and acting like a complete tool, while person 2 is insistent but at least is providing reasonable argument why he should get the role. If the party could democratically vote on who should be promoted to the disputed role, then the other person may just have to accept something else. If they decide to flame/troll even after a civil democratic dispute, they are a Toxic player and will be dealt with by Tribunal.

If disputes were able to be handled in a POSITIVE manor (promoting someone) rather than a NEGATIVE (kicking) it will be more palatable for anyone who can rationalize.


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Xenoman

Junior Member

03-13-2013

Instead of WoW Dungeon Finder, is it possible that there could be a lottery system in place?

You can select your roles in order of preference, from 1-5, or assign a value to each role as to how willing you are to play it.

Example:

1 - Jungle
2 - Support
3 - Top
4 - Mid
5 - ADC

Or . . .

Top (3)
Mid (3)
Jungle (5)
Support (5)
ADC (1)

When you join a team, a RNG helps to slot each player into a role, assuming the system can't match a "perfect team" where everyone gets what they want in a reasonable amount of time. You are more LIKELY to get the role you want, but you aren't guaranteed. You may end up playing an ADC.

You're given the option, in pre-game chat, to trade your role with someone else.

I don't think concerns over the meta and reinforcing it matter as much. The vast majority of games boil down to the five roles, and those that don't don't NEED to use the system.


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DepressedDandy

Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacredowns View Post
I say we get something like the WoW dungeon finder and players get extra IP or whatever for queing as support.
i agree support is a hard roll or maybe like in WOW how you get extra stuff when your a roll with a small about of people Q ing as that.


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Airfoil

Junior Member

03-13-2013

I think the biggest problem you might find is the idea that matchmaking is the end-all solution to pairing strangers together.

I would propose something along the lines of a square, or a market. If you made it easy for players to connect with tons of other players, with a viable way of getting your message across, then you have a situation where players can 'pick' their teammates.

What I'm thinking of would be a sort of dynamic chat room, where your name could display an overall message (ex: I play an aggressive support, looking for a group) and you could connect with random folk whom matchmaking would likely pair you with anyway (only display people in your MMR, etc). The only difference is you have a chance to organize and pick who you think will make a good team. The 5 of you get together, and look for another group of similar MMR and away you go.

Of course, there are certainly flaws with this. This would require much planning and tuning, but it kills a few birds with one stone. First, it replaces your current archaic chat room system, which supports all of 200 complete random people, that I have never successfully used and that I quite frankly can't figure out. It solves the problem of needing a way to 'opt out', once you queue up you've chosen your teammates, so it lies on the collective responsibility of the group to weed out the toxic players. It also solves the problem of finding good friends to queue with, tightening the community.

I have to get going, and there's more to that thought, but I feel as though the general idea is there. Let me know what you think.