Let's talk about Champ Select

First Riot Post
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Thaladread

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Senior Member

03-13-2013

Enforce Pick > Call order. Done.


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Rataburok

Junior Member

03-13-2013

I feel like a WoW Dungeon Finder style queue would do more harm than good. It cements roles and stifles the meta. If someone wants to do a bruiser style bot lane, what do they queue for? A system like this will lead to expectations for everyone to abide by a certain set of rules even more so than the current meta. Especially since the adc role seems less prominent at this time, and the meta seems on the edge of a huge evolution.


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CaptainMĂ„rvelous

Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
1) Vote Kick | Players want the ability to vote kick toxic players from Champ Select.
2) WoW Dungeon Finder | Players want the ability to queue up for a particular role like “Healer” and “DPS” and placed into a Champ Select with a team
3) Prisoner’s Island | Players want matchmaking to pair toxic players with toxic players, and positive players with positive players.

What are some pros and cons to these ideas? Would they work for League?
Well Lyte let me make some comments on this.

1.) The vote kick
What's good about the vote kick? Well for starters you can straight up remove someone who's being rude to the team. You can kick the guy that instalocks revive/teleport Karthus even though it works because nobody wants to play with him. It'll also probably impose a penalty so you have reason to avoid being kicked as opposed to "Kick me lol I'll just do it again"

What's bad about the vote kick? It's can EASILY be used to troll people. Say X called for mid but he's playing with a four man premade. They can all kick him, regardless of if he called first or not, because they have majority power. Vote kick makes the game a case of "Who can be the most popular and turn everyone against one guy?" Along with that you also have unorthodox picks which can be easily banned...though I can see wisdom in that (Play unorthodox stuff with your friends, not in a random party)

Would I recommend vote kicking? Yes. Despite the flaw, vote kicking will more likely be used for helping everyone on the team as opposed to being used as a tool to get the best person you want/someone who will bend to your whim. Not to mention kicking the AFK guy before the game starts.

2.) Role Selection

What's good about role selection? Positive emphasis on playing roles that aren't played. Nobody wants to play jungler anymore and very few wish to play support. Instantly, these are the "Diamond" guys of the League. Sure, you can queue up for top/mid/ADC but you're gonna be sitting there for 15-30 minutes for a queue. Wanna be support? Come get in line, you get the express elevator.

What's bad about role selection? People will queue up for roles they don't know how to play for the fastest queue. Along with that, how would you pick what champions qualify for what? You could queue for jungle, lock in Heimerdinger and demand mid. Thus the guy who's been waiting for 30-40 minutes is now screwed because the 3 second jungler queue got screwed up. Along with that what if someone has a legitimate but unorthadox jungler? Can they not be Karthus jungle because despite it working, Karthus is not an approved pick for jungler queue?

Would I recommend role selection? At this time NO. There are too many variables and in the end it would do more harm than good. Test it out in blind pick if you want but don't put this in ranked.

3.) Rune Prison/Prisoner Isle

What's good about Prisoner Isle? The wall of shame to discourage people who want to troll...well. Some of them. Nobody likes being singled out and NOBODY likes having everyone laugh at them. Rune Prison gives them a hefty dosage of both and will quite rapidly discourage those who don't like being laughed at a terrible time.

What's bad about Rune Prison? Lyte, you guys do NOT know what you're talking about with Trolls. They don't care if they win or lose. They don't care about IP. They don't care about LP/ELO/MMR. They want to make your day miserable. See, these guys will gladly stay in prisoner isle and just make a new account. Sure, not everyone will do this but you just gave trolls a spotlight. Now people will WANT to get into this isle of misery and show off just how COOL and AWESOME they can troll.

Would I recommend Rune Prison/Prisoner Isle? NO. While you'd give some guys a lockdown and make some people change their ways, you're giving trolls a spotlight and a place to show off. Again, you're not gonna be fixing the main problem of leveling alternate accounts and it's entirely possible after banning one account with a lot of money associated with it, they'll just make a bunch of accounts and troll without spending a dime.

You really wanna hit trolls? IP bans. Computer bans. You need to keep them from making more accounts if you honestly want to see punishments stick.

Hope this is good Feedback Lyte. Shogun Megazord guide you.

EXTRA EDIT:

WHY NOT ENFORCE GOOD BEHAVIOR OVER PUNISHING BAD BEHAVIOR?

Seriously, Honor was a step in the right direction but let's go further. Not being banned will get you bonus RP. Not being sent to the tribunal will net you a skin. Give the players who are doing something right a cookie rather than giving the those that do something wrong a slap on the wrist.


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Acanthus

Senior Member

03-13-2013

I also would like to add that I am very uncomfortable with a vote-kick function. I used to play a game where vote-kicks were possible, and usually it would go well, but it sort of turned political at times, and unknown players (large scale pvp) tended to get the short end of the stick because they had no reputation. Likewise, we are not expected to know other players we wind up with, and I can forsee vote-kicking not going very well.


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Lyte

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Lead Social Systems Designer

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03-13-2013
6 of 55 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by No Pawns Dawns View Post
In response to the 3 possible suggestions:

1) Yes - This is my favorite because generally if there is a problem in pregame lobby it boils down to one particular unfriendly summeoner.
Vote kick is an interesting idea that has been suggested by players for quite awhile; however, what are some of the goals we'd like to accomplish for Champ Select?

One, we want to encourage cooperation in Champ Select. Two, we want players to have an ability to opt-out if they are 'stuck' with players they perceive are toxic or extremely negative. Vote-kick systems tend to give players an opt-out mechanism; however, they do not encourage cooperation.

In fact, in some scenarios vote-kick systems encourage premade groups to bully the strangers in the lobby into specific roles or champions. Given a scenario with 5 strangers, if 4 strangers happen to agree on roles and the 5th doesn't, the 4 strangers are highly likely to collaborate to kick the 5th. Given a vote-kick system, we are likely to see more disagreements than before, and greatly increase the time it takes to get into a game.


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Navn

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Question, is there a distinct difference in attitude overall throughout both Normals and Ranked Solo Q?, and possibly the level of play? (Higher ELO vs Lower ELO). Is it possible to have different solutions in different scenarios?


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Cameryn Kyre

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by davin View Post
We actually agree here. Players are rather in favor of this, probably because it's a pretty intuitively appealing approach ("just put jerks with jerks and let them be jerks forever / change to get out!"). From research we've done we know that players think this is a good idea (close to 75% of players, actually!). Lyte can talk some about why from a behavior standpoint it might actually end up doing more harm than good.
So... can we just pair players who have the same opinion on pick/call?

It's less complicated and "meta-binding" than queing up by role and will help foster a sense of dialogue and teamwork in building a stronger team because entitlement will be formally removed from the equation outside of pick order/call order.

The toxic players would gravitate towards call order, but if they grow weary of it they can learn another champ or two and try to assimilate into the matchmaking with (hopefully) more reasonable players.


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RadiantLuna

Member

03-13-2013

My thoughts on these "solutions" as a Psychology grad student myself:

Vote kick initially seems like a good idea- it doesn't force a meta or cause matchmaking issues. However, there are abuse concerns with both premades and kicking out unconventional picks. Teams could also abuse this function to force a requeue if they don't like the enemy team composition.

Role queueing seems to strike at the root of the problem, which is that multiple people want to play the same role at the same time. One issue is that this would "enforce" a meta to some extent, which Riot does not wish to do. Another issue is that queue times would not be equal for all roles (supports would have lower queue times, mids would have higher queue times) so a mid player may queue as support to try and break the system.

Prisoner Island seems like a decent solution possibly, except that toxic players are not going to become less toxic by being queued with negative players. Being around negative players will probably just make their behavior worse, which gives little opportunity for reform.

Maybe the best idea is to have role preference indicators before queuing up. This forces the meta less than queuing as a specific role (and avoids the queue time issues), but may allow for easier communications of the preferred roles of everyone on the team. You can at least point to one of the people demanding Mid and say "Hey we don't have an AD Carry yet and you have that listed as your second choice, mind doing that for this game?" There's no perfect solution, but having easy access to everyone's role preferences may help in a time-crunched environment.


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Sakuri Ono

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post

1) Vote Kick | Players want the ability to vote kick toxic players from Champ Select.
2) WoW Dungeon Finder | Players want the ability to queue up for a particular role like “Healer” and “DPS” and placed into a Champ Select with a team
3) Prisoner’s Island | Players want matchmaking to pair toxic players with toxic players, and positive players with positive players.
1 is a rather terrible idea because of the concept of 'off builds' and 'hated champions'. People will knee jerk against things they don't understand so if someone, for example, plays and extremely well-performed AP Varus and calls it as such pre-game; players are likely to automatically go "Lawl! **** build. Kick pls!" Also this allows for premades of 4 (or 3 if you just utilize majority vote) to bully the fifth into playing whatever they want. "Play Amumu or we'll /kick you out." (And I'm assuming you're going to include penalties for being kicked seeing as how you specificy this as a 'toxic player remover'.)

2 could work well; so long as there's enough wiggle room in the role definitions for the meta to shift. However also causes problems by requiring too much trust. What if someone picks to Queue for Support the decides to go Graves? You could stop that by locking players into certain champions if queued as a role but then you kill future meta changes. I.E: What if somewhere down the road it's discovered a comp with Jax as a 'support' works really, really well? Guess what; can't do it because queue does not identify Jax as the 'support' type. It would require a lot and constant fine tuning to use this system either way.

3 I see nothing wrong with in theory. In fact I think some other online games already use a similar system. Still has the problem of false positives. I.E: See how many toxic players got your ribbons in the first months of you starting up the honor initiative. Sure it's 'gotten better' but it still amuses me how many rage-happy people I see sporting the Santa Barron icon. Personally I don't think your system is good enough at telling positive from toxic yet to implement this.


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NegaStoat

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Senior Member

03-13-2013

This solution please.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...order+solution

A pre typed sentence taken from each player as they go to enter the queue, but before they arrive in the champ select lobby. Please consider the merits of this suggestion.