Let's talk about Champ Select

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davin

Senior User Researcher

03-13-2013
5 of 55 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by MugenNightmare View Post
I don't see the Prisoner Island thing working.


Destroying with destroyers is a very odd thing to me.
We actually agree here. Players are rather in favor of this, probably because it's a pretty intuitively appealing approach ("just put jerks with jerks and let them be jerks forever / change to get out!"). From research we've done we know that players think this is a good idea (close to 75% of players, actually!). Lyte can talk some about why from a behavior standpoint it might actually end up doing more harm than good.


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SaintCrazy

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Concerning the Dungeon Finder idea - what if, before we get to the Champion Select, we had a chance to type out what we wanted to do in this game or what we consider ourselves best at? Just an empty text box that you could use to say what role(s) you'd like to play, OR if you're open to non-meta ideas. It leaves some room for discussion. Once everybody makes it to champ select, the message is automatically posted, instead of everyone racing to type our what role they want.

The main problem I see with this is that most people would still just call roles with it, only typing "mid" or something. But at least it leaves a bit more time for discussion later.


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smoggie

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Member

03-13-2013

I'd reccomend the dungeon finder idea. I've thought about it myself and figured that there could be high queue times if hypotheically people would rather play anything other than support. The problem is that this system trusts people to stick to their roles. Who's to stop a support instalocking a mid champ? I believe though that this is the best idea AND COMBINED WITH THE VOTE KICK can solve issues of toxicity. Also maybe add the option of queueing for "any role" to avoid limitations and shorten queue times. Like you mentioned the context issues, people queuing for only one role should be aware of high queue times BEFORE games.


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Fomorian27

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Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
We want to take some time today to talk about Champion Select.

1) What are the problems?
2) What are some potential solutions?

The player behavior team has been running research on Champ Select and we agree that Champ Select is currently not a great environment and does not set teams up for success. We’ve all experienced Champ Selects that have erupted in arguments and had that sinking feeling that the game is lost before it even started. In saying this, there are plenty of Champ Select lobbies that are awesome and being positive and cooperative in every lobby does help; however, being positive by itself will not solve the problems in Champ Select and we don’t expect it to.

Solving player behavior problems in League of Legends requires collaboration between us and players and we haven’t done our part in Champ Select yet. As you can imagine, the problems (and any potential solutions) are complicated.

Something we’re seeing in our research is the influence of context.

But you know what?

This player's behavior isn’t toxic. He’s just like any one of us--we all have our bad days.

---

Let’s break down this scenario into some of the problems that we’d like to solve in Champ Select:

1) Real-Life Context | This scenario really illustrates how context outside the game can influence behavior inside the game. Traditionally, game studios don’t design or solve for context. Or can they?

2) In-Game Context | This scenario illustrates the conflict between Pick Order and Call Order. When there are literally no guidelines, at best, half of the players believe in Pick Order and half believe in Call Order—we’ve created a situation where conflicts are expected rather than rare.

3) Time Pressure | From psychology, we know that time pressure sometimes twists context in hostile ways. Players in Champ Select are effectively trying to negotiate with each other over individual goals (i.e, what role I want to play this game) that overlap with team goals (i.e, given this set of teammates, what’s the best strategy for us to win?). Studies suggest that throwing time pressure in there is like adding fuel to the fire—the end result is more disagreements and lower quality of negotiations.

4) Cognitive Biases | Hopefully davin will talk more about this, but people show cognitive bias in many ways. For example, many of us enter Champ Select thinking we are the best at whatever role we want to play—this is statistically impossible; however, there’s no reason to trust any of the strangers in the lobby. This really isn’t the players’ fault, it’s simply being human.

These are some major problems with Champ Select that we’ve identified in our research. So what’s next? A lot of players have suggested the following:

1) Vote Kick | Players want the ability to vote kick toxic players from Champ Select.
2) WoW Dungeon Finder | Players want the ability to queue up for a particular role like “Healer” and “DPS” and placed into a Champ Select with a team
3) Prisoner’s Island | Players want matchmaking to pair toxic players with toxic players, and positive players with positive players.

What are some pros and cons to these ideas? Would they work for League?

I'm afraid you guys at riot have done too good a job at convincing me that none of the three solutions are viable. You talked about why prisoners island wouldn't work, dungeon finder would be forcing the meta, and though I'm not sure why 1 doesn't work, I'm guessing there's a reason for that as well.

I do think that one of the biggest sources of aggravation is two people wanting the same role. There are rules of ettiquette that I follow: if it's ranked I always let the higher pick decide what they want. If it's blind pick, I basically go by call order, or fill in if i wasn't fast enough to say anything. However, not everybody is constrained by these rules of ettiquette, and the fact that they have to change between game modes means that your thought process needs to change between games.


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Akaneiro

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
1) Vote Kick | Players want the ability to vote kick toxic players from Champ Select.
-I'm guessing how this would work is that if 4 people vote yes, it counts as a forced dodge for the toxic player? Maybe no lost LP or failed series, just a longer wait before rejoining the queue, and the other 4 would get priority matchmaking?
Also, how would it handle duo's in ranked, or premades in normals? Would the vote system exclude people in a group with someone from voting on if they get kicked?

Definite potential for abuse in normals with 4man premades, but honestly I think the benefits outweigh the cons. I'd support it.

Quote:
2) WoW Dungeon Finder | Players want the ability to queue up for a particular role like “Healer” and “DPS” and placed into a Champ Select with a team
-This, I'm not sure about. I'm fairly sure Riot have said they don't want to enforce a specific meta, which I'm guessing this would do depending on how it's handled. Also quite a high potential for abuse, since people could queue for healer and then lock in Darius or something. I guess it could work if you combine it with a votekick feature.


Quote:
3) Prisoner’s Island | Players want matchmaking to pair toxic players with toxic players, and positive players with positive players.
I see nothing wrong with this, really, as long as there's some definite notification that the toxic player gets telling them "You're toxic, so you get to play with other toxic people to see what it's like." That'd be a huge incentive for them to clean up their act.
What I want to know is how they'll end up in the toxic queue. Would they go in there if they got a warning from the Tribunal, or a specific numer of reports? What would happen if they reformed, but were still stuck in the toxic queue because some other toxic people decided to keep reporting everyone to keep them in the Prisoner's Island? I guess their report weight would drop drastically, but some people would still be stuck there longer than necessary.

Just my views on the stuff.


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AbyssionKnight

Senior Member

03-13-2013

The issue I have with the prisoner island is simply, how does a player whose stuck in a toxic queue ever reform? As I see it, the ragers will just cause people who could reform to rage as well, and continue the cycle until either those players quit, or they make a smurf account, and continue to expand upon the issue of toxicity at lower levels that lol already has.


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karate dad69

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Here's the issues I see

#1 don't play the meta? Don't agree with the duo? Playing what some would consider a weak champion? You're kicked.

#2 man queued up as top lane or ap mid takes forever. I'll just hit support and when I get in select a mid champ.

#3 I'm trying to improve my behaviour. How would being paired with other toxic players help that? How is the tribunal gonna treat these people? How do I get out?


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jordank

Junior Member

03-13-2013

Champion select doesn't determine a game its what carries over from it and continues throughout the entire game. A queue is the only reasonable thing that "might" work here but in reality all of these options suck.


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Harry W

Senior Member

03-13-2013

I would love to see a vote kick and a "dungeon finder" for the queue. Would make league life far easier.


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Bowsersaur

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Senior Member

03-13-2013

1) Vote Kick
a. Pros
i. Ability to report and remove a toxic player from champ select if there is a majority
ii. Toxic player has a report to the tribunal registered and they have a time delay for the next queue
b. Cons
i. Groups of players could maliciously remove players they don't want to play with
ii. Other false reporting
Checks and Balances
a. Removal from queue would be similar to dodging. 5 minute penalty if you were votekicked the first time and then say an hour for the second. This would hopefully 'negate' the cons of malicious group votes. The chances of you being queued with 2 malicious groups in a low shouldn't be all that high.
b.Reports/votekicks should also be monitored so that groups that do maliciously votekick are instead punished/banned

2)WoW Dungeon Finder
a. Pros
i. Allows players to queue for a selected role (sometimes I just want to practice top lane today, why should I have to call it/fight for it in normal champ select when I can just queue for it and everyone will be 'happy' with my decision)
ii. Allows players to be queued with people that deem themselves acceptably skilled in that role instead of forcing players that are maybe not as skilled into the role. Should overall decrease fighting in champ select
b. Cons
i. Length of matchmaking could increase
ii. Player could falsely select and then choose another role - player could then be votekicked or reported after game
Checks and Balances
a. Votekick
b. Reporting
c. Not everyone has to use the role queue, they would still be allowed to be randomly matched with players.

3) Prisoner's Island
a. Pros
i. 'Positive' players would rarely see a 'toxic' player
b. Cons
i. How do 'toxic' players get off the island?

Overall I really like the idea of votekicking and role queueing as long as they are implemented with proper controls. They remove much of the drama from champ select or allow players to control who they play with.

For the 'Prisoner's Island' I believe the cons outweigh the pros unless there was a way for toxic players to get off the 'Island'.