So, about that Karma leak...

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Veelivar

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03-12-2013

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Originally Posted by Lavantant View Post
This. This right here is the response to ppl saying that karma is oversexualized in the VU.

And yet, his legs are more covered than new Karma's, as only his toes, upper knees and a itty bit of knee thigh are visible.
One of his arm coverings pretty much matches the area of hers, she has an extra neck-shoulder to his strap, and underneath his strap is bare.

A million times more naked? I think not.
.25x more or so, I think.


He does have the abs, but that's a sign of physical fitness. I guess they could have covered that, true, with a bronze breastplate or the such.
However, Draven is a showy little bastard, and as a character he'd probably be happy walking around showing off his abs.


He is missing the bulge to match her slit-to-the-hip dress though.



That aside, it's not that the new art/model is oversexualised (minus that to-the-hip-slit), it's that it is hypersexualised for the fans/lorists of Karma, who read into her personality and person in general.
No one here is demanding MF or Ahri or the such have their more sexual themes reduced - it is specifically about Karma and her levels as a character.


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Vondross

Junior Member

03-12-2013

While I am not new to the game, I don't really use the forums very often. I have been coming on here for some time now though, reading this thread. Karma was one of the first champions I picked up and really enjoyed just because of the higher skill level needed to thrive with her. I highly doubt any of the Rioters (Morello and such) will read this, but I just wanted to chime in with a few things.

Before I go any further, i'll start this off with: Kudos. I was really worried at first, but having read the majority of your explanations and reasons in this thread, I can tell you guys have really put some work into it and I praise you for that. As a graphic designer, who is working on his MFA, I know how hard it can be to revisit and re-envision something; especially something you have any investment in. You have all gone above the call of duty on this one, and it is just awesome that there will be a traditional skin.

What I wanted to ask, or suggest, were a couple ideas that popped into my head. I didn't see these posted anywhere, or at least not in your responses ...

A) A lot of people have talked about their disappointment, or outright dismay, about Karma's fans not being incorporated into this new version. I agree that sometimes things may need to be stripped down, or taken away, for progress to happen. You could however incorporate the fans into one of her animations (such as her Taunt, Laugh, Dance, or Joke); as long as it didn't involve her breaking the fan or such. While it would not have anything to do with her kit, it would still be a saving grace towards the "hardline" Karma enthusiast and show a tie to her original aesthetic creation.

B) I saw that you made mention of her being a support mage similar to Lux, Morgana, and others. Without giving too much of her kit away, could you elaborate on her specific function; specifically, is she more offensive, defensive, or a utility driven support mage?

C)Out of my own curiosity, and desire to know, what served as the inspiration between Karma? It can be her original creation, this re-work, or both. I don't mean as in why you guys made the decisions you did, but how did you really "come up" with her in the first place; what was the inspiration that lead you to go "This is something we can develop and make"? Was it wanting to see what a female Gandhi with cosmic powers would look like, or ???


If by any chance these questions get answers by the Riot Staff, please accept my thanks in advance! It really shows you guys are working hard and moving to progress the game forward. I know I am not the only one who thanks you deeply!

Sincerely,
Vondross


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Koraq

Senior Member

03-12-2013

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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Additionally, Karma originally only had two fans, and we wanted to increase that amount by removing the fans.
#punsofdamage


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Lavantant

Member

03-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veelivar View Post
...
Actually, I'll agree with you that she should not be sexual because it doesn't fit her theme. It's not often that someone ends my stubbornness, you're very rational, good job sir/ma'am.

The only real argument I have now is really a but why do we care? kinda thing.


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Grand Viper

Senior Member

03-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Afrocalypse View Post
There is a difference between (unnecessary) sexualisation and oversexualisation.
People understand when someone says "Why got she more sexualized" that they are like "OMG SHE IS A STRIPPER NOW GG SL.UT BECAUSE LEG" when they really just complain about unnecessary sexualisation on a modest character.
There is always so much exaggeration everywhere because so many people can't discuss properly, sigh.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veelivar View Post
And yet, his legs are more covered than new Karma's, as only his toes, upper knees and a itty bit of knee thigh are visible.
One of his arm coverings pretty much matches the area of hers, she has an extra neck-shoulder to his strap, and underneath his strap is bare.

A million times more naked? I think not.
.25x more or so, I think.


He does have the abs, but that's a sign of physical fitness. I guess they could have covered that, true, with a bronze breastplate or the such.
However, Draven is a showy little bastard, and as a character he'd probably be happy walking around showing off his abs.


He is missing the bulge to match her slit-to-the-hip dress though.



That aside, it's not that the new art/model is oversexualised (minus that to-the-hip-slit), it's that it is hypersexualised for the fans/lorists of Karma, who read into her personality and person in general.
No one here is demanding MF or Ahri or the such have their more sexual themes reduced - it is specifically about Karma and her levels as a character.
Thank you, discussion! It is because of her lore that I think this is oversexualizing her because of who we have been led to believe she is supposed to be given her back story, her League judgement and everything. When you have that characterization already established, and her name, and her motif, I think one should look at what can be done, and Traditional Karma is a pretty good example of coming together and bingo bango, an update.

There are a few things I don't like about Traditional Karma, but hey, can't please everyone, right? I think aesthetically, it gives more of an idea as to what Riot is trying to go for than her new main skin does.

In regards to her new skin, what I do like:

Her circlet. I'm a sucker for circlets, and that does show her regal/leader, yet modest figure to me. It's simple, it works with the idea that she's one of the many rulers of Ionia, and it gives her a sense of humbleness and modesty although it punctuates her symbol as a leader.

I also like the pattern on her dress itself, it gives it a mystical air but because it's all curves, it's soothing, and you can see it in her in-game model. I think that gives her a good flair of serenity, the image of water flowing and so forth. It's the little details that make a character to me, and the lore certainly helps.

There are a few things that would make me nitpicky, like her earrings and her hair style, I think a proper hair bun would be nicer and still be modest yet feminine as it incorporates shorter bangs but the implication of long flowing hair, and so forth. That's me being nitpicky though, if they gave that to her on her traditional Karma skin I'd be, "Nyeeeh, I can deal with it."

I think I already stated my biggest issues with Karma's redesign, so anyone else? Criticizers of her redesign, what do you like about her redesign?


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Veelivar

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03-12-2013

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Originally Posted by Grand Viper View Post
I think I already stated my biggest issues with Karma's redesign, so anyone else? Criticizers of her redesign, what do you like about her redesign?
Kind of a weird list I have, and they all seem to relate back to a closer evolution of her old character more than anything, but here goes:


Her shoes. I really like her shoes.
They're (mostly) practical, and have the ankle restraint. They're kind of what I would have imagined Karma wearing under her dress, anyway. It also may have something to do with that kind of shoe being somewhat connected to refinement/upper classes in my head.
A decent shoe for a hard, endless worker.
(Like I said, I have a weird list)


The gold and silver accents.
True, I'm a sucker for metals, but gold and silver are opposites, and are a good way of adding colour/value to an outfit without pulling out the bold, more emotion tied colours.
Some gold/silver accents on her old style outfit would have done some wonders for it, I think.


I agree with the circles/swirls to the point where I'd like to see more of them on her. They're kind of hidden amoungst all the sharper angles that make up the majority of her clothing.


I like the *idea* of the circlet, but would have liked to have seen something... dainter on her. Even just a rounder stone, or rounder sides on the headpiece. Again, the circles were good.


The silver waspie cincher piece she wears. Again, ties back to her old, restraining and impractical dress.


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Iridos

Senior Member

03-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryOrunitia View Post
... the fact that we understand what they're doing, but we do not agree with it. And you're right about Riot not owing us to act upon our comments, or taking our opinions into consideration, but we're still free to express them. Especially when the Rioters themselves expressed a degree of surprise and confusion towards our reaction.
Just wanted to let you know that I thought this was very well stated.


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Grand Viper

Senior Member

03-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veelivar View Post
Kind of a weird list I have, and they all seem to relate back to a closer evolution of her old character more than anything, but here goes:


Her shoes. I really like her shoes.
They're (mostly) practical, and have the ankle restraint. They're kind of what I would have imagined Karma wearing under her dress, anyway. It also may have something to do with that kind of shoe being somewhat connected to refinement/upper classes in my head.
A decent shoe for a hard, endless worker.
(Like I said, I have a weird list)


The gold and silver accents.
True, I'm a sucker for metals, but gold and silver are opposites, and are a good way of adding colour/value to an outfit without pulling out the bold, more emotion tied colours.
Some gold/silver accents on her old style outfit would have done some wonders for it, I think.


I agree with the circles/swirls to the point where I'd like to see more of them on her. They're kind of hidden amoungst all the sharper angles that make up the majority of her clothing.


I like the *idea* of the circlet, but would have liked to have seen something... dainter on her. Even just a rounder stone, or rounder sides on the headpiece. Again, the circles were good.


The silver waspie cincher piece she wears. Again, ties back to her old, restraining and impractical dress.

Mm, the shoes do work in this case, I agree about that. If the heels were on a champion like Riven though, I'd be kind of wtf, but for Karma? Those kinds of shoes do work, and I forgot about the ankle restraints.

And Silver/Gold does have some good compare/contrast values, and even provide good dichotomy if applied properly. Her old design had silver, but to go with the black and white theme, some gold would have been nice, I can see that now. One thing I can't say for sure, is does she still have her silver neck piece? I can't see it from the angles that are provided to us via the spoilers. I really liked it, oddly enough. I think her Traditional skin has it? (Had to check, it does!)

The cincher piece I think I am a bit ambivalent towards, because I'm not sure how it's supposed to be held on her body, or how she wears it. Is it a metal piece, is it a series of wrappings? An extra cloth that's slipped on then tightened like a cincher? It's like Riven's hair, how does it manage to stay up at the back? There's nothing to tie it up =p

A round, daintier circlet, yeah. I can see that working on her, to further accent the idea of fluidity, flow, calm.

Oh! There's a Fist of the North Star quote I remembered, that I think would best describe Karma and what one should think when looking at her/reading her character:

"One cannot fight the raging river with more rage, it will be drawn in and smashed apart. If you oppose the flow, you will be swallowed up. Calm water against a raging stream is the flow of a quiet river. Calm water overcomes the raging rapids: Give your body up to the raging water and become the calm stream."

It can also be totally applied to Lee Sin, but I think the sentiments are there, and I was reminded of it due to all this talk of water and flowing and so forth.


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HarryOrunitia

Senior Member

03-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iridos View Post
Just wanted to let you know that I thought this was very well stated.
Thank you! I kind of needed to hear that. English isn't my first language, so when I get downvoted I always wonder if it's because of how I expressed myself or if it's just what I'm saying... or both.


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Blackthorn

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Senior Member

03-12-2013

Riot please dont release her with NEON TURQUOISE effects. That is about the trashiest color I can imagine.