So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
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IS13d0bef7a26900094c0e3

Junior Member

03-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryOrunitia View Post
Which is something they could've achieved with some buffs, or a simple kit rework or a less drastic visual upgrade.

It's insane to think the reason why Karma wasn't popular was the way she looked. There are lots of champions in the League with unappealing and/or confusing designs but they still get picked a lot because they are strong picks and because they fit with the meta.

The reason for her unpopularity and the idiotic "karma who?" meme is that her kit didn't fit with the meta, and especially in the support role, was slightly underpowered if paired with a ranged ADC rather than a melee champion. I don't think she was underpowered in the AP mid role but her reputation made it pretty much impossible to play her there (unless you're ok with being flamed from champion select until the end of the game, regardless of the result). And Riot sure didn't help because while every other champion got regular tweaks, fixes, buffs and nerfs with almost every patch she was pretty much ignored for the whole two years since her release (last time she got changes to her numbers was March 29th 2011, followed by a bug hotfix in May 10).
please get this through your head. old karma did not show off what karma was all about, what riot intended for karma to be all about. that's why they changed her. if you think they just went "hurr durr let's just make her *** appeal to make her popular" that's wrong. if you read their first three posts, you'd know that's wrong. you're too caught up in emotion to realize that though, you're just telling yourself, "there must be a way that riot is wrong about this, there's no way that karma's visuals weren't the right fit, they must be the right fit because that's how she was like until now," which even that is flawed thinking because you're basically saying "this flaw is right because it existed before and riot hasn't fixed it until now." and maybe that's riot's fault, but only for not fixing it before she even went live, so people wouldn't get attached to something that didn't represent who karma was.

read this sentence again and again: "We also crafted a new set of animations that emphasized her status as a champion of Ionia rather than a matronly diplomat."

read it again. and again. and again. you see that there? they don't want karma to be a matronly diplomat. "matronly diplomat" was what the dress and fans and walk said. they didn't want karma to say that. so the dress and fans and walk go. and then they're replaced with things that say "inner strength" and "paragon of ionia" and "mystical spiritual leader." this karma may not be "your" karma, but that doesn't mean riot has made some horrible, unforgivable mistake. don't delude yourself, it makes all karma fans who are embracing this change, look bad.


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Grand Viper

Senior Member

03-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HottShotJEEJEE View Post
take a step back, and look at how entitled you are. "riot is doing this redesign to please her old fans! there's no other reason they'd change her!" no. no no no. and no again.

they didn't make this public and ask karma's "fanbase" if they liked this new direction they were taking to get karma to convey what they originally wanted her to convey, because their goal wasn't to please her OLD fans. if the old fans fell in love with something that didn't work or that wasn't good design, that's too bad, but it's not going to stop them from fixing their old mistakes. they didn't talk to you, because they weren't doing this for YOU. they were doing this for everyone. they were doing this so everyone could understand what karma is all about and what she does, which her old image just didn't do.

they explained this all within the first three posts of this thread, i'm starting to thing you never even read it, and just got mad because they changed your baby.
Quick question, when did I say they should do this image redesign to please her old fans? She doesn't even have those anymore. I joke, I joke, but at no point did I say her redesign was needed to please her old fans. I'm saying that her visual redesign was needed, like Sivir's is needed, like Taric's is needed, hell, even like Udyr's is needed. They all look like blocks of wood, Karma looked like a cylinder.

And you're correct, they didn't do this for me. They did it for you and me. How does her current image read as a bad *ss leader of Ionia, compared to her old one?

Twin dragons, a dragon tattoo, a Syndra-esque outfit because it really does look similar to Syndra and my complaint there is that they may be falling into their own self-made trope of archetypical dressing, which no other Ionian is seen wearing except Karma and Syndra, glowing eyes and outstretched hands. Does purple even constitute as regal colors in Asian cultures? Would it constitute in Ionian...okay now I know that sounds dumb because Ionia and Ancient Greece, maybe they can take some influence from Greeks, right? But what exactly says regal, calm leader here? I already pointed out the hand, the Mantle of Decorum looks separated, broken almost, as if to create wings or something, and nothing about her screams leader of Ionia really. Except maybe the circlet? I do like her circlet, truth be told.

How did her old image not do that? Was the name Karma and the fact that she was walking with Yin/Yang on her dress not enough?

What if we dove into Taoist philosophy, where the idea of yin/yang comes from? The idea of following the Tao, your path, in life? Taking from Wikipedia directly, the three treasures of Tao are: are basic virtues in Taoism comprising Compassion, Moderation, and Humility. They are also translated as kindness, simplicity (or the absence of excess), and modesty. Arthur Waley describes them as "[t]he three rules that formed the practical, political side of the author's teaching". He correlated the Three Treasures with "abstention from aggressive war and capital punishment", "absolute simplicity of living", and "refusal to assert active authority".[61] (Wikipedia)

Could you have played on these ideas, themes, and so forth to bring the idea of said regal leader? Yes or no?

There is a lot that can be looked at, especially when it comes to Karma because of her position, because of who she is supposed to be as a character. It's really not about "my baby", it's about maximizing her potential for everyone's sake, really.

And do refrain from making personal attacks. It's rather rude.


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HarryOrunitia

Senior Member

03-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HottShotJEEJEE View Post
please get this through your head. old karma did not show off what karma was all about, what riot intended for karma to be all about. that's why they changed her. if you think they just went "hurr durr let's just make her *** appeal to make her popular" that's wrong. if you read their first three posts, you'd know that's wrong. you're too caught up in emotion to realize that though, you're just telling yourself, "there must be a way that riot is wrong about this, there's no way that karma's visuals weren't the right fit, they must be the right fit because that's how she was like until now," which even that is flawed thinking because you're basically saying "this flaw is right because it existed before and riot hasn't fixed it until now." and maybe that's riot's fault, but only for not fixing it before she even went live, so people wouldn't get attached to something that didn't represent who karma was.

read this sentence again and again: "We also crafted a new set of animations that emphasized her status as a champion of Ionia rather than a matronly diplomat."

read it again. and again. and again. you see that there? they don't want karma to be a matronly diplomat. "matronly diplomat" was what the dress and fans and walk said. they didn't want karma to say that. so the dress and fans and walk go. and then they're replaced with things that say "inner strength" and "paragon of ionia" and "mystical spiritual leader." this karma may not be "your" karma, but that doesn't mean riot has made some horrible, unforgivable mistake. don't delude yourself, it makes all karma fans who are embracing this change, look bad.
I don't need to read anything "again and again and again". You're the one who needs to get something in your head: the fact that we understand what they're doing, but we do not agree with it. And you're right about Riot not owing us to act upon our comments, or taking our opinions into consideration, but we're still free to express them. Especially when the Rioters themselves expressed a degree of surprise and confusion towards our reaction.


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IS13d0bef7a26900094c0e3

Junior Member

03-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grand Viper View Post
Quick question, when did I say they should do this image redesign to please her old fans? She doesn't even have those anymore. I joke, I joke, but at no point did I say her redesign was needed to please her old fans. I'm saying that her visual redesign was needed, like Sivir's is needed, like Taric's is needed, hell, even like Udyr's is needed. They all look like blocks of wood, Karma looked like a cylinder.

And you're correct, they didn't do this for me. They did it for you and me. How does her current image read as a bad *ss leader of Ionia, compared to her old one?

Twin dragons, a dragon tattoo, a Syndra-esque outfit because it really does look similar to Syndra and my complaint there is that they may be falling into their own self-made trope of archetypical dressing, which no other Ionian is seen wearing except Karma and Syndra, glowing eyes and outstretched hands. Does purple even constitute as regal colors in Asian cultures? Would it constitute in Ionian...okay now I know that sounds dumb because Ionia and Ancient Greece, maybe they can take some influence from Greeks, right? But what exactly says regal, calm leader here? I already pointed out the hand, the Mantle of Decorum looks separated, broken almost, as if to create wings or something, and nothing about her screams leader of Ionia really. Except maybe the circlet? I do like her circlet, truth be told.

How did her old image not do that? Was the name Karma and the fact that she was walking with Yin/Yang on her dress not enough?

What if we dove into Taoist philosophy, where the idea of yin/yang comes from? The idea of following the Tao, your path, in life? Taking from Wikipedia directly, the three treasures of Tao are: are basic virtues in Taoism comprising Compassion, Moderation, and Humility. They are also translated as kindness, simplicity (or the absence of excess), and modesty. Arthur Waley describes them as "[t]he three rules that formed the practical, political side of the author's teaching". He correlated the Three Treasures with "abstention from aggressive war and capital punishment", "absolute simplicity of living", and "refusal to assert active authority".[61] (Wikipedia)

Could you have played on these ideas, themes, and so forth to bring the idea of said regal leader? Yes or no?

There is a lot that can be looked at, especially when it comes to Karma because of her position, because of who she is supposed to be as a character. It's really not about "my baby", it's about maximizing her potential for everyone's sake, really.

And do refrain from making personal attacks. It's rather rude.
keep on reading riot's first posts. i have explained all i can, and you guys are getting nowhere. i'm explaining to you why none of your whining will get you anywhere. this is the last post i'll say in here, because i know that you guys are wasting your time and that i don't need to waste any more of mine. you can throw out all these complaints, but in the end, you are a very vocal vast minority, and a wrong one at that, so you're going to have to deal with being the loser. it's sad, but your're the one being stubborn about it.

riot marches on. you have the option to pick yourself up and dust yourself off and wipe away all your bitter baby tears, or get left in their tracks because you're upset. your call.

JEEJEE no re.


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HarryOrunitia

Senior Member

03-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HottShotJEEJEE View Post
keep on reading riot's first posts. i have explained all i can, and you guys are getting nowhere. i'm explaining to you why none of your whining will get you anywhere. this is the last post i'll say in here, because i know that you guys are wasting your time and that i don't need to waste any more of mine. you can throw out all these complaints, but in the end, you are a very vocal vast minority, and a wrong one at that, so you're going to have to deal with being the loser. it's sad, but your're the one being stubborn about it.
Yes, we're definitely wasting our time writing articulate replies to your posts because you don't even read them. You just repeat "shut up you're wrong Riot's right read the first three posts again hurr durr jeejee" over and over again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HottShotJEEJEE View Post
riot marches on. you have the option to pick yourself up and dust yourself off and wipe away all your bitter baby tears, or get left in their tracks because you're upset. your call.

JEEJEE no re.
We were left in their tracks the moment this rework was announced. Or perhaps long before that. They can keep marching on, or they can go back and show that they also care about minorities in their playerbase. Their call.


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Afrocalypse

Senior Member

03-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HottShotJEEJEE View Post
keep on reading riot's first posts. i have explained all i can, and you guys are getting nowhere. i'm explaining to you why none of your whining will get you anywhere. this is the last post i'll say in here, because i know that you guys are wasting your time and that i don't need to waste any more of mine. you can throw out all these complaints, but in the end, you are a very vocal vast minority, and a wrong one at that, so you're going to have to deal with being the loser. it's sad, but your're the one being stubborn about it.

riot marches on. you have the option to pick yourself up and dust yourself off and wipe away all your bitter baby tears, or get left in their tracks because you're upset. your call.

JEEJEE no re.
Do you feel like you pointed something out noone knew? Lol.
It is as funny as sad seeing the same stuff being argued about in here over and over again, I am glad I put up with this as Ames was the last time here.


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Grand Viper

Senior Member

03-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HottShotJEEJEE View Post
keep on reading riot's first posts. i have explained all i can, and you guys are getting nowhere. i'm explaining to you why none of your whining will get you anywhere. this is the last post i'll say in here, because i know that you guys are wasting your time and that i don't need to waste any more of mine. you can throw out all these complaints, but in the end, you are a very vocal vast minority, and a wrong one at that, so you're going to have to deal with being the loser. it's sad, but your're the one being stubborn about it.

riot marches on. you have the option to pick yourself up and dust yourself off and wipe away all your bitter baby tears, or get left in their tracks because you're upset. your call.

JEEJEE no re.
Except all you have been is stubborn, rude and condescending. So really, it's no skin off our back if you do not wish to engage in discussion. You didn't even bother pointing out what valid points of my argument I made and what invalid points I made. You just went directly for the personal attack.

Did you try asking me what I do like about Karma's redesign? Because there are quite a few things I like about it. But we shall never know, shall we?


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PrettyUnicorns

Senior Member

03-12-2013

Goodbye, old karma. I'm gonna miss your underplayed status ;_;.

At least I'll still have sejuani though....


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Lavantant

Member

03-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HexedCat View Post
Gladiator Draven is a million times more naked...
This. This right here is the response to ppl saying that karma is oversexualized in the VU.


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Afrocalypse

Senior Member

03-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lavantant View Post
This. This right here is the response to ppl saying that karma is oversexualized in the VU.
There is a difference between (unnecessary) sexualisation and oversexualisation.
People understand when someone says "Why got she more sexualized" that they are like "OMG SHE IS A STRIPPER NOW GG SL.UT BECAUSE LEG" when they really just complain about unnecessary sexualisation on a modest character.
There is always so much exaggeration everywhere because so many people can't discuss properly, sigh.