So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
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crimsonprodigy2

Senior Member

03-10-2013

fuk yea free skin!


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Healurownbum

Senior Member

03-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Severian NA View Post
I've expressed it many times, in many forms. I will paste one here. However, the easiest and most thorough way to give a quick impression of how I saw Karma, my favourite champion, is to post the chinese skin. Note that I made this reply before I read any other replies, so if it overlaps I apologize.

"Yet, as I feared, this becomes a clean break. Like it is suddenly the future, and her old friends barely recognize her. (We did have issues as you know, with the leaked pic :P )
This is Battle-Karma. And I see that is what you wanted her to be. It is not the Karma who expressed how centered, serene and self-confident she was by simply walking straight out on the battlefield, then going "Oh, Yes. This dress maay have been impractical."
Expressed in the way she stood, calmly looking around and fanning herself. Entering the battleground as a noblewoman who simply will not be fazed. I can see her staring down Shyvanas true form, fans fluttering, the only change of expression and poise an arched eyebrow. In her impractical dress.
I will miss that ridicilous calm and confidence. I see that my Karma has been measured and found wanting, and that is saddening because she truly was unique. But alright. It was your decision, and I am sure you didn't make it lightly. I won't rant and rave, this is life.

But I have one request. If you add a classical skin, then I can treat the rest as years later, and I get to keep my Karma. Everybody wins. But that requires a dress. This one is much too practical. It requires fans, and it requires her old animations (though feel free to tune them up). Especially the walk and idle ones. And her old voice. I realize and appreciate the gesture of the classic skin. Yet if you want the classic skin to be our Karma, it requires its most defining aspects. If you would go to those lengths I will be ridicilously, pathetically grateful for a bridge that ties the new to the old, for getting to, officially, keep my Karma. It would make everybody come out on top.
It is silly, how did I grow this attached to her? "

T.T
Chin up! Might not be as bad as we think. Yea im keeping up some hope. Maybe her skin will still have a certain air of her old self. I hope so. We havent seen anything rly expect for some ingame pictures. And they dont show too much. Her walk is normal now tho but maybe just maybe she still has something from her oldself left.

Here is for hoping! Anyways im going to bed im exhausted and as you are now around to take over.... I dont mind leaving it in your hands! Trust you enough. And u cant do worse then me

Sooo good night or good day peeps


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Severian NA

Senior Member

03-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SexyShady View Post
(....)

This might be a little cliche... But what I loved most about her was her attitude. Always calm. I turned off my music and turned up the champion voice when I played her because she kept me calm. Kept me focused. Like Sona, I really felt connected to the character psychologically. A good character keeps a strong connection with their player. I'm a college student majoring in personality psychology and I want to go into the video game industry as a character designer, to strengthen bonds between characters and players. This is EXTREMELY important to me.

EDIT: Let me elaborate a bit if you're still confused... It's like someone taking your best friend, teammate, (or if you're really loyal to Karma) your lover and saying "Hey guys imma change everything about them, but don't worry, they're gunna be better than before!" I appreciate what Riot is doing to an underplayed champion, but it's still a sting to the heart if you played her a lot.
I second this. This is exactly how I feel about Karma and this whole mess.


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LucentNova

Junior Member

03-10-2013

I actually think that this rework is really nice. Actually the reason why I bought Karma in the first place was her fans...but after playing with her I realized that her fans didn't have the central focus in her kit that I wanted. So I think that removing the fans from Karma and giving them to a more fan-centric warrior would be better for that. Otherwise the rework looks amazing except for the really weird back posture. That looks a bit unnatural. Maybe you could also cover up either her shoulders or more of her leg. I mean you could keep the tattoo and make her dress go to her knee instead of exposing her entire leg. You could still keep her new and re-imagined image with that. Still I was waiting for this remake and am happy that this is finally coming out! Thank you!!!


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mi ramfan

Senior Member

03-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by phatcat09 View Post
This thread hijacked by itemsguy --- I'm out. Any and all discussion will now be turned into "You're sutpid I'm right" followed by droves of people upvoting someone who's verbose.
lol so true


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Josh de Tonreau

Senior Member

03-10-2013

gg


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

03-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryOrunitia View Post
Again, it feels like you don't understand what I'm saying, and I'm sorry cause it's probably because of the way I expressed myself. I don't know, but either way we'll have to agree to disagree as I said before.

I like RPGs but I think there's a place in MOBAs for character development that's at least inspired by that in RPGs, and that is just an opinion. I'm sorry you seem to think that this opinion would mean breaking some sort of first rule of game design.
Oh, there's certainly room for character development--don't get me wrong--but that kind of stuff can only exist in lore (especially if they started up another JoJ-type thing, or at least brought back the League Judgments ;_;7 ). What's expressed in-game has different standards entirely, and is generally the most important part of a champion--after all, LoL is a video game, not a book series. While background reading material is great and enriches the experience (and is also one of the biggest things it has over HoN and DotA2--the ability to engross players even after they close out of the client; they still have an entire world to engross themselves in, and that's damn cool, and also why stuff like Pokemon is so popular), it's subject to change if the gameplay has to change. That is to say, the lore is there to accompany the gameplay, not vice-versa.

I'd say the champions where Riot has really hit the nail on the head in terms of gameplay and character coherence are champs like Rengar, Darius, Draven, Vi, Thresh, and so on--when you play them in-game, you're stepping into their shoes and romping around for a bit. Their kits are carefully crafted to encourage players to get in the mindset of the character that represents it, and that sort of player-character synergy is what makes or breaks a game (a lot of designers call it "immersion," and it's what just about every company and design team tries to capture--it's the experience, which the game is only a humble vessel for). And you know what? Since that level of coherence exists, it creates grounds for a sound and compelling backstory to exist as well. Thresh's sadistic and turturous nature is illustrated by his more deliberate playstyle in-game (whether it's haunting around to collect souls, or the drawn-out nature of his hook, or the fact that players are encouraged to wait for those two drags before jumping in, etc.), Draven's desire to show off is replicated beautifully through his Spinning Axes and ultimate (it also helps that he's the most mechanically difficult carry to play!), Rengar is all about hunting down other champions and collecting trophies, and so on. If you read the lore of these champions, you're not reading explanations of what each and every ability does through little non-sequiturs that add nothing to the story (see the last sentence of Graves's lore, for example, where it's more or less "oh by the way, his shotgun is specially made, so don't give us a weird look when it shoots out gas canisters and stuff").

So in the end, lore is great, but the best lore will always be lore that acts as a compliment to a coherent kit and playstyle that represents something that isn't unique to LoL ("how was I supposed to know what this thing is?" "shoulda read all of the lore, bro")--stuff like fire, and minotaurs, and berserkers, and all that jazz. Something that you can look at after falling in love with a champion once you've played a few games with them and clicked with the mindset their kit has instilled upon you, and go "oh, so THIS is why Vi punches people!" or "so that's why Draven's chilling out in the League and acts the way he does" and so on. It should act to flesh out a champion, not explain what they do in-game--that detracts from the other stuff (see Jarvan's League Judgment--it's more or less an exposť of all of Swain's abilities instead of an actual fight scene).

Quote:
You seem to think that designers shouldn't think the same way players do, or see things the same way. I think it's pretty much the other way around. They are supposed to sell this product to players, not other designers.
Designers are players (or, at least, they should be--it's kind of hard designing for a game you've never played!). However, players are not always designers. This is why Rioters have to take everything the community says with a grain of salt--just because they want something, doesn't mean it's what's best for the game. I think it's explained this way before: You have a child, and it knows it wants sweets. It cries and screams and kicks its feet because it wants sweets so much! It wants sweets for every meal, and at all times of the day. So clearly, sweets are good for the child, because it knows it wants them! That, of course, isn't the case--it's up to the parent's discretion to know what to feed its child, and it's also the parent's responsibility to teach the child what is good for them and what is bad for them, so that the child can make decisions for themselves down the road and teach their own child what's good and bad.

In other words, just because a player wants something, doesn't mean it's a good design decision. A bunch of people got upset when AP Trynd got nerfed, because they knew they liked it! They didn't take into account, however, how the existence of that iteration of AP Trynd affected other players--he was a pain in the ass to deal with (for various reasons, including free sustain at no risk, fast lane pushing at no risk, general lack of counterplay, etc.). So that direct heal was nerfed, people were upset, but ultimately, it was the right decision--it allowed for an environment where other people didn't have to deal with the problems that AP Tryndamere created, and that makes for a healthier overall game.

What you seem to want, is for there to be champions that are, like you said, poorly designed--and I have told you why that's a bad thing. I've told you why this thing you like is bad, and you have reacted negatively to it--which is understandable, because it's a thing that you like and I'm saying it's not healthy for the game for pretty huge reasons, such as raising the barrier of entry unnecessarily high and making it more difficult for newer players (which will always exist as long as League is doing well--which is important, because new blood is paramount for the wellbeing of competitive games!) to understand what is happening, decreasing their enjoyment (and likeliness to continue playing) because an understanding of what's happening in-game is directly tied to how well one can do in-game. If you walk into the game as a new player and see this dude that's on fire, and he throws a fireball that stuns you sometimes, you're going to be confused. "Why is this fire dude stunning me? Why is that fireball only stunning me sometimes? How come when this guy throws fire at me it burns me for a little bit, but when this little girl throws fire at me, it doesn't burn me?" It's like picking up a platforming game where the directional buttons are all mixed--up makes you go left, left makes you go right, and so on--you're going to be frustrated, and you're probably not going to want to get over this unnecessary hurdle because it's keeping you from enjoying the game, and you're playing that game because you want to enjoy it.

I acknowledge what you like and why you like it, but it's also my responsibility as a designer to tell you why Riot was justified in removing it and guessing at/reiterating the thought process behind said removal.

Quote:
You also said the less characters there are, the more complex they can be, and again I think it's pretty much the other way around.
You can fit more bluebird eggs into a basket, than you can fit ostrich eggs into the same basket. The way you're talking, the complexity is exponential--that because I have fewer eggs in this basket, the basket has inexplicably shrunk, and that it increases in size whenever I put another egg in there. That, however, is not how things work--especially with design. If I have two games, and know the general threshold of the average player's information retention (we'll assign it an arbitrary variable here, like, say, 20), and one game has fewer variables (characters) to assign information (complexity) to, each variable can contain more information. If one game has 5 characters, and I want to be uniform about things (which smooths things over and is generally the way to go when you don't want to frustrate your players with unpleasant surprises--people don't like having the rug pulled out from under them), I can give each character 4 units of complexity in order to caress that average player information retention threshold. However, in a game with 20 characters, I can only assign each 1 unit of complexity--it still adds up to 20, and the average player is not left overwhelmed and can focus on the game without having to stop and look things up every few minutes. Likewise, if I only had 2 characters, I could assign each one 10 units of complexity. That's the sliding scale of variety vs. complexity, the threshold of which changes from game to game.

I hope this explains things well enough--what you just said really makes no sense to me whatsoever, so I'm wondering if we just weren't on the same page there.

Quote:
And I absolutely fail to see how exactly Karma's visual design can ruin a game for the other 9 players... I really don't understand this.
This isn't so much the case for a far-less-than-perfect iteration of LoL riddles with archaic flaws that have yet to be retroactively improved (by the new relaunch team, in this case), where not being able to know what the hell a champ is supposed to do just by looking at them, is the norm.

However, in a game wherein every champion fits Riot's design criteria (particularly, "One thing that's important to us, is 'theme.' A character needs to have a really central theme. You have to. . .[be able to] look at a character, and almost be able to know just from the splash image, what its abilities are going to be , what it's going to do in the game, how it's going to function. what role it's going to play."), Karma's previous design would not live up to standards, provided her intended theming stayed the same (the whole duality thing). The fans existing in a non fan-based playstyle (ie. a kit that contains few to no mechanics that are comparable to the functions of a fan, be it just a regular fan or a bladed one, as both are fairly well-known due to pop culture and culture in general), are nothing but blatant misinformation, and are the equivalent of giving Singed a huge demon arm for no reason. "Oh, this dude has a huge demon arm, and it's a prominent part of his design so it's probably important. What does it do?" "Oh, nothing, it's just there to add character."

Which champion designs, you usually want to be able to say as much as possible with as few words as possible--that's why the visual design team puts such a huge emphasis on silhouettes in-game, as that's the first indicator of what a champion might be like. There's not really any room for "extra" stuff on basic models--this tends to be more for crazy cool skins, emotes, and so on. For example, it wouldn't be detrimental in any way for Karma to pull out a fan for a recall animation or taunt or what-have-you, but as long as her playstyle isn't fan-like in any way, shape, or form, having them be as prominent on her design as they currently are would be problematic and would more or less lie to players by implying that this champion can do even anything remotely fan-like (knocking back enemies with gusts of wind, etc.).

Champion designs have to be incredibly conservative because in-game, they don't take up that much of the screen and your vision of them is limited by the top-down view--not to mention that they're constantly moving, and that unless you're playing as that champion, you probably won't be seeing them for that much of the game. It's important that players can be given a substantial insight of a champion's function in-game (again, that quote from the Retrospective) at a glance, because most of the time, that's all they have. If Karma's design says "HEY LOOK AT THESE TWO FANS SHE'S HOLDING ALL THE TIME, THEY'RE IN HER HANDS LIKE WEAPONS TEND TO BE FOR EVERY CHAMPION IN THE GAME THAT HAS A WEAPON, SO THEY'RE PROBABLY HER WEAPON" and none of her abilities have anything to do with fans, then that's misinformation and creates a moment of "wait what" at best, or forces a player to close out of their game and open up a wiki (or flip to a flashcard) at worst.

Of course, you're free to disagree with me on this. I'm not trying to influence your opinion in any way, but I am trying to help you understand that Riot is doing what they're doing for very valid and easily-defendable reasons, and not because they hate Karma players. Is it unfortunate that Karma players got attached to an aspect of her visual design that was only tied to her lore (and only very little of her gameplay--her Q)? Of course--but that doesn't mean it should be preserved, and Riot isn't forbidden to change something just because a group of players of any size has grown attached to it. Players aren't entitled to anything, especially in a free to play game--even if you pay for a champion with RP, you've paid about the equivalent of two sandwiches, and there is no written agreement stating that what you purchase is going to stay the same forever (hell--champions get nerfed every patch, and you will always see rage threads immediately after; nobody wants their favorite champion to get nerfed!)--the only guarantee is that the content you paid for will stay in the game. Even if they change Karma from the ground-up, that is still one champion that you own and do not have to pay for agian. Riot has taken nothing from you, and having something you love change is one of the hazards of playing an evolving game.

I'm sorry you're upset about Riot's decisions, but you cannot reasonably say that they are unjustified. Plenty of people seem to be looking forward to her new release, so the only advice I can give you for the time being is to go with the flow and trust that I will fight tooth and nail to preserve what you loved about her previous iteration and give it a fitting home once I start working for Riot. You will get your elegant, fan-wielding diplomat someday, but she will not be Karma! If those parts of Karma were what you truly loved, then you should have no reason to not dry your tears and smile for tomorrow. That's the path towards happiness--hold my hand, I'll take you there.


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Severian NA

Senior Member

03-10-2013

Dear Ames

I think I am starting to get it now. I didn't understand why you couldn't just add the fans and the dress to one skin. I did realize that there might be several complications that made it difficult, but I really wanted a direct answer, "we can't do that because ... "

I still feel like it hasn't been properly answered. I realize that I'm just being both thick, and a bit difficult about it. However, I would appreciate it if we could just settle that once and for all, so I can put this behind me without feeling that there has to be some way.

So I will try something different. I will explain my impressions of the reasons behind why these things were removed, and how that might explain why it won't happen in any of her skins. That might make it easier to correct me, confirm and perhaps elaborate some. I would appreciate that, even if this is just about me having a really hard time looking into the future and knowing that, in not too long, I will never see my favourite champion again.

Though; I am slowly starting to let go of my grudge against Riot, for doing this to me. I knew I had no right to feel that way, it wasn't fair to you guys, and that is why I have been here with my walls of text. I was really trying to get a grip, and that was hard when you went so fast. However, I realize the leak forced your hand in a less than ideal manner. I might even be starting to look forward to the rework, because I expect a lot from you guys, and you are reworking a basic concept I love. A new friend can't replace an old one, but it is better than being left alone, to put it dramatically.

But yes, I got sidetracked again >.<

Here goes:

The fans:
As I understand it, you don't want to add fans. They will break some design principle(s) and distract players because they don't serve any function. It would also conflict with animations as people move differently with empty hands, and look like they were a part of her abilities because hands hold tools. And maybe it would be silly for Karma to take her beloved fans into the battlefield if she doesn't use them, especially if she has them in her hands.
Is that it? Are there more reasons not to?

But then, people bring surfboards to the fields of justice... Themed skins doesn't have to make sense, and we already have a japanese-themed skin. I would appreciate an explanation as to why she can't be holding fans and have that lovely idle animation where she calmly cools herself, in the sakura skin. If "that would just be too much work" is the explanation, I can accept that. But it would salvage 2/3rds of what I am way too attatched to. ...people can handle a little confusion in a themed skin, they are supposed to be silly.
Thoughts?

Wait, IronStylus was in charge of her design? You put > IronStylus < in charge!? No
wonder she ended up so *sob* practical. It is a miracle she didn't end up in full plate.
He must have shown inhuman restraint. Or. Could he have known that the
hidden gem that is our Karma, was able to take the spot of "my bestest character"
from not only Ahri, but Leona!? Did he realize that this gem, if polished, had the
potential to reveal that strong women did not need to rely on practical things like
armour and ... Where was I, oh (Im on to you, IronStylus...).

Ahem! The dress:
You have said several times that a dress is very difficult to implement in general, and that it conflicts with her new animations and stuff. So basically it would be a nightmare to implement. Is a dress in itself so difficult that it is cheaper to crush our spirits, than to implement? Uh, I mean, is it a dress in general, or is it the nature of her animations that complicates it enough to seal the deal? Are those so central to her new design, that it is impossible to adapt said animations to fit a dress in a different skin? You'd have to redesign her, again?
Damnation, It was too impractical, it even restrics and hinders the animators XD

Am I on the right track? It just gets in the way of everything, so it is gone for good? I hate to admit that I can understand some of the difficulties. Yet. Is it realistic that, if you make it a legendary skin one day, it won't exceed the amount of effort you put into such skins? Pulsefire Ezreal, go home. Impractical Karma will blow you away!

But it is at least obvious that the dress is not happening, in any current skin, and that makes me a very sad panda, because it forces me to swallow that the sakura skin won't have a foot-length kimono >.< I am starting to suspect you had to redesign the entire skin, and there goes my last hope. You would have said so if it had fans, and the dress is obviously a no-go! >.<

Thoughts, comments, corrections?

This ends my "I need to hear this directly, and would love some elaboration" request.

Though! I really think a legendary skin is brilliant idea! I mean, I bet people would love all the work of a legendary being channeled into pulling off a dress, and implementing some old animations and fans. Yes. Solid idea! What? Don't look at me with such pity! This is a great idea! ... I AM NOT IN DENIAL! *runs off sobbing*

Sillyness aside: If you do me the favour of making me understand this, I will do you the favour of shutting up about it! XD I apologize for being thick, but I am both curious and I want to understand these things. I hope you can provide some feedback, unless Riot plans to reveal more about this later on.

Anyway, as I said, I appreciate you taking the time to do this. I didn't understand anything Riot was doing, and taking everything in good faith was becoming too much after months of anxiety with only scraps of information, and then the way this was revealed. You are well on the way to earn the dubious honour of becoming my favourite Rioter. And, if you knew how much I respect guys like Lyte, Xypherous, Zilean, IronStylus (though now probably as my arch enemy) and Morello, you might even be happy about it!


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BadgerDrool

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Senior Member

03-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotAmes View Post
Ask yourself how you think someone with fans fights. Is it a shield? A tether? Is the most powerful manifestation of this person who fights with fans the ability to improve their other abilities?

We didn't feel that was the case. The fans were a distraction from what she was supposed to be, then. (a note: yes, we could have spent time forcing the fans to work, but that didn't work out the first time) Instead, we looked at her Inner Flame and Mantra - this spoke of an inner strength, uncompromising in the face of adversity. That strength was also a source of power for her. This made sense, this wasn't 'in the way'. Digging deeper, we decided that it was this strength and her devotion to her country that we felt made her powerful and memorable. More than a politician who happened to fight, but a legend in her own right.
You didn't have to spend time "forcing the fans to work". You just had to stop using them as a major design element and major design focal point. A single fan can be a minor design element that mantains, in a reduced form, a major component of Karma's old visual design.

Total removal is the bleach option. Removal of all color and nuance. Instead of removing the primary color of the color scheme. Move it to a secondary or Tertiary element.

Trying to keep two fans and fans as a weapon are the areas where the usage would be forced and awful. It really just wasn't a well done element of her old skin. However, a fan can be used to accent motion and provide a boldness to action.

A total gut of this element is my issue. Removal of it as a major element doesn't mean total removal.

IMO, cut some of the model out of the "mantle" by reducing it to just the dragon, and remove the "lvl 30 wow" style shoulder pads. move the tank top over to something more like this to replace the shoulder pads with something that might cover the same space but use up less room. Take whatever gains in reduced resources to make a single fan to bring into her animations and movement. Look at this fan as a way to accent the new major design motifs and concepts.



Quote:
We've had a lot of good feedback. We went into this knowing that not everyone would be happy with the changes, but are confident that we've made the right decision.
That's an easy claim to make and I feel you'll find it easy to justify as well. The fact is that Karma's fans are already a minority. A significant portion of players are clearly looking at this as a new champion. They don't see what is missing or lost from her old design. They don't see the missing potential.

I speak mostly for my own perspective because I am unsure who might agree with me. However, I feel that it's the loss of potential that bothers me more. Karma's old visuals had a lot of flaws but there was a lot of potential there. That potential is now lost.

Anyway, the fact is that if there was a vote I'd lose. Hard. It's too hard to try to explain or show what's missing. It'd need a full on example model and animation made to show what the new Karma could be. It'd take arguments that are not directly against but instead try to push to one side. In a popularity contest Karma's previous fans have already lost.

Which isn't to say that there isn't a Karma out there that can make Karma's old fans and new fans happy at the same time. My own views have always been about finding that Karma. That Karma that can appeal to both sides.

I'm just so disappointed because I seriously expected better from Riot on this one. It really feels like the old fans are being treated as a minority that can be safely ignored to capture the attention of everyone else. It sucks because that wasn't what we where promised. It wasn't what we hoped or expected. Worse, I feel that Karma herself has lost a great deal of her uniqueness to become a stereotype caricature.


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BadgerDrool

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Senior Member

03-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotAmes View Post
Just a hint? Hm. Like we've said - we don't want players thinking she fights with her fans for various reasons. I do understand the attachment, though..
This can be done by having most of her animations be independent of the fans. I really feel you/Riot are very stuck on the fans being either "there as as weapon" or "not there at all" as the only options here.

Why does Karma's current fans look like they are how she casts? Well because they are a major focal point in all her cast animations. They even float in some (and are totally obscured, didn't even realize they did that until I looked closely) animations! They are always open and always present. They are in every single animation and are in mirrored animations that look exactly the same except for being left instead of right.

Would they still be a major focal point if they are reduced to a single fan that is used in 10-20% of her animations? If this single fan was closed most of the time so as to not be present 100% of the time as her current two fans are? If none of her walk animations involved the fan? If her Dominion channel animation involved her empty hand? If she just used them as a bit of flair? Maybe only as alternate cast animation she uses on occasion, an idle, and one of her joke/taunts? Would it send the same message about the fans?

You guys are really cutting out something that can be cool and add to Karma. Yes even the current direction. As I said elsewhere. Imagine two animations for a spell cast. In one she swings the closed fan. In mantra version she snaps the fan open at the biggest moment of the cast animation, an image of the dragon appears, and it glows along with the rest of her.


I mean, I think Karma has more flaws then just the fans but the fans are a pretty big mistake. You had three options. Fans kept as a major element, reduce the importance of the fans, or remove the fans. The mistake is choosing removal. Yet keeping them as a major element would have been just as much of a problem.