So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
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Healurownbum

Senior Member

03-10-2013

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Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
What, out of curiosity, did you love about old Karma?
To me its how she looks, talks, sounds and feels overall. In my eyes she never was a champion that needed all the attention and was out to be seen, but was around to help and if needed fight.
She has a certain arrogance over her, like standing in the middle of a teamfight using her fan to cool herself. Almost as to say relax all will be well, i aint panicing so neither should you. I am here and we will win. That to me kinda did keep me calm collected.

And i love the fact that a mantra ment u could go between offensive and defensive. U could bait your enemy and make them pay. Or get jumped and still survive if played well. She has so much going for her it suprises me more ppl didnt play her. The tricks you can pull of as a support (Yes i played her as a support and mid or top or even jungle.) That massive AoE heal or that silly awesomely timed shield that just made you win the teamfights.

Or putting ur W on the enemy ADC slowing like two others cause of that and doing dmg. She to me was able to do everything, take on anything and do it without breaking a sweat.

And she is one of the few champions that wasnt underdressed or in armor. But in a dress that too me looked amazing, silly but amazing. The black and white of it said enough to me. I can either be your angel or your devil. I can do it all.

Her default lost that to me, sure she still looks like she has a strength to her. But not that grace and beauty i loved. And to me it doesnt show she can be two sides of the same coin. Able to fight or protect. Stand up for those she loves, or take care of them. With a certain calm to herself. In the new VU she becomes in my eyes more of a fighter less of a protecter. Losing the balance for me. And this is what also has me worried for her kit.

And i rly hope this wasnt a extreemly boring read and i got my point out there. Understandable atleast. So you can see how much i will miss her. Sure we get something new for it. Two new champions within one patch is something

But im losing my favorite.

Edit* Oh... And sometimes i dont know what i wanna play support or APC, she lets me be both. And when my ADC is kinda well bad i can still some what make up for that lack of dmg.


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Josh de Tonreau

Senior Member

03-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Healurownbum View Post
To me its how she looks, talks, sounds and feels overall. In my eyes she never was a champion that needed all the attention and was out to be seen, but was around to help and if needed fight.
She has a certain arrogance over her, like standing in the middle of a teamfight using her fan to cool herself. Almost as to say relax all will be well, i aint panicing so neither should you. I am here and we will win. That to me kinda did keep me calm collected.

And i love the fact that a mantra ment u could go between offensive and defensive. U could bait your enemy and make them pay. Or get jumped and still survive if played well. She has so much going for her it suprises me more ppl didnt play her. The tricks you can pull of as a support (Yes i played her as a support and mid or top or even jungle.) That massive AoE heal or that silly awesomely timed shield that just made you win the teamfights.

Or putting ur W on the enemy ADC slowing like two others cause of that and doing dmg. She to me was able to do everything, take on anything and do it without breaking a sweat.

And she is one of the few champions that wasnt underdressed or in armor. But in a dress that too me looked amazing, silly but amazing. The black and white of it said enough to me. I can either be your angel or your devil. I can do it all.

Her default lost that to me, sure she still looks like she has a strength to her. But not that grace and beauty i loved. And to me it doesnt show she can be two sides of the same coin. Able to fight or protect. Stand up for those she loves, or take care of them. With a certain calm to herself. In the new VU she becomes in my eyes more of a fighter less of a protecter. Losing the balance for me. And this is what also has me worried for her kit.

And i rly hope this wasnt a extreemly boring read and i got my point out there. Understandable atleast. So you can see how much i will miss her. Sure we get something new for it. Two new champions within one patch is something

But im losing my favorite.
then just play Traditional Karma and quit crying


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Healurownbum

Senior Member

03-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh de Tonreau View Post
then just play Traditional Karma and quit crying
Remarks like that arent helpful at all. It just tends to make ppl angry and makes you look childish. If you have no respect for others please just remove yourself. Im currently lacking the ability to babysit you, so by all means if you do still need attention later come back then. For now im sorry im tired.

*edit Urghs... Here i was trying to not let my emotions get the better of me, and i get baited by the troll


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Schoild

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Recruiter

03-10-2013

RiotAmes, can you please update us on how the sakura and sun goddess skins will look like? i paid for her and this was harsh news when i found out i was gonna have another champion instead of the one i paid for :/ i mostly bought sakura karma for her fans.. but if she looks GREAT without them.. i can move on and love this new karma too.. please dont ruin sakura karma..


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SexyShady

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Member

03-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh de Tonreau View Post
then just play Traditional Karma and quit crying
Lol you're an idiot and a dick. Read what other people are saying, smart one. Arrogant bastards everywhere.


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

03-10-2013

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Originally Posted by HarryOrunitia View Post
And again, you're right about that. But Karma isn't a new champion. Something I also wouldn't want as a designer is to have to go back and retcon what made a character that character. Maybe it was a bad idea, maybe it was bad design, but it's something the players got used to in the past two years, something that no matter how flawed, was accepted and recognized as the essence of that character.
A stitch in time saves nine.

Also, keep in mind that what you've grown attached to about a champion doesn't mean what you've become attached to is good. Keep in mind that you are not the only one playing this game, and that Karma's design only effects Karma players. Keep in mind that League is an evolving game, and that sometimes, mistakes must be fixed retroactively in order to move on and improve the overall quality of the game.

I can understand that all of this may be difficult to swallow, but that's how change tends to work. Things that once were, will be no longer. Does that mean you'll never see them again? Of course not! And maybe, the removal of an aspect of something that you liked, creates an opportunity for it to be re-integrated in a way that's better for everyone. In this case, a new champion that has the elegant charm of old Karma, who is all about those fans! You can't really have a champion that truly captures the feeling of fighting with fans, that elegance and flow and flourish that would make you want to play as a character that fights with fans in the first place! This champion can't exist as long as Karma has (and doesn't use!) those fans. And Karma can't use those fans as long as she's Karma, because those fans don't represent the core concept that Riot wants to express with her.

I ran into a similar response to my Sion redesign with Sion's current playerbase--they were attached to his stun and his shield, which really had nothing to do with what Sion was (a hulking, axe-wielding, undead behemoth of a warrior). They, ultimately, were attached to things that weren't "Sion," but attached to Sion in a very un-Sion way. But as long as those non-Sion aspects are there, players will never be able to play as the Undead Champion (to the extent that they could), because those non-sequiturs are in the way. But of course, that doesn't mean that they could never have access to what they like about Sion currently! It would just have to be reincorporated elsewhere. And who knows? Maybe it might work out even better, for everyone.

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Not every character in League of Legends is well designed, or particularly logical in its design, but I've always thought that was part of the appeal, it added to the realism somehow, knowing that some champions just have some quirks and personalities that not always make sense.
That's not what you want with competitive games, especially games where you want players to jump right in and immediately "click." This isn't a single-player game you can just sit down with and learn along the way, like Pokemon or Cave Story. Quirks and things you wouldn't expect aren't really something of value in LoL, because it is, first and foremost, a competitive game. Players need to look at things and know what they do. You can't throw curveballs around every corner, because that frustrates new players. It robs them of an understanding they thought they had, and then beats them down until they realize that they really don't know much about anything, and need to memorize flashcards with champion kits in order to not get their ass kicked because they don't know what X champion's Innate does or that this dude that's on fire will also stun them.

Designing for LoL is not about personal preference--trust me, if it were, then all of my redesigns and original concepts would be bruisers with movespeed buffs. You need to design for players, and take every fantasy into account--you have to bend each role in every way you can, so each champion can be both refreshing and functional. You need to have a core experience you want to hand-carve, package, and deliver to players every time they click on that icon in champ select, and every part of that champion's kit must point right towards that experience.

If League of Legends had 20 or so characters and each one had an entire numberpad of abilities and skill trees to select from, then definition wouldn't be as much as an issue. Champions, however, are bite-sized games in and of themselves, and if anything is out of line, then the design is only weaker for it.

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Just like the fact that the champions in this games are actually identified by their first names and not their "titles" like it happens in most other mobas.
It's a huge part of the appeal, I think some of these things definitely helped LoL become the game it is now, it went from a game for a few thousand users to a game for millions, even with all its quirks, its bugs, its weird/poor design choices.
Also, one thing I hope you understand, is that defending poor design choices isn't necessarily the best stance to take. Justifying flaws is not a winning move, because flaws in the context of design are not good things! Also, I feel that you're speaking more from personal opinion and experience (rather than from an objectively design-oriented standpoint), so I think it would be best to use such blanket statements as "this is a huge part of the appeal." What you might like about the game might not be what other people like about it--in fact, you might be in the minority! It's a painful place to be, believe me, but making the distinction between "what I like" and "what's healthy for the game" is a powerful step to take, in the direction of understanding why Riot does what they do.

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I understand that now, after the huge growth, they want to adopt a more "mature" and streamlined design philosophy and it's fine to apply that to every NEW champion, but I just don't see the point in going back and "correcting" older ones.
The Law of Sewage: "A drop of wine in a barrel of sewage makes sewage. A drop of sewage in a barrel of wine makes sewage." Having some champions that are readable and some champions that aren't makes the existence of the readable champions do more harm than good--it's like going into a supermarket where only some of the products perform as advertised. Might this blender make for the best hairdryer you've ever owned? Sure! But if you saw the blender and purchased it, chances are you did so because you needed a blender.

For a more concrete example, let's take Vi and Mordekaiser. You see Vi, and go "Oh, she has huge fists and looks fairly scrappy, so I'm sure she's all about getting into close range and beating the **** out of people--better not let her get up-close and personal if I want to walk away from this bruise-free!" You see her in-game, charging a punch, and she lets go--and everything continues to make perfect sense. "Of course she's going to punch! And if she can wind up her punch, it's probably going to be more powerful! Better step out of the way when I see her doing that!"

Then you're up against Mordekaiser--the champion with the most physical armor in the game, and a huge, spiky mace that's just as big as he is, if not bigger. "Oh, I bet this guy hits like a truck with that mace and is super tanky, so I better stay out of melee range and build some armor to mitigate his damage!" ...And then you're faced with a mage that can steal your ghost and kill people with it.

The best-case scenario is having all champions that live up to Riot's current design criteria (mostly illustrated here), and settling for anything less is just a little bit silly!

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This type of evolution/redesign is something I would expect from an entirely new release, say a LoL 2,
Heh. : P

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but not something to suddenly add in a patch. There are some things that need fixing, some others are just part of the original appeal and if Riot went back and reworked champions like this everytime they chose a new design strategy, it would obviously be a never-ending work, and a never-ending source of disappointment for the people who fell in love with the game because of those champions, and got used to them being the way they were.
Well, to be honest--they are giving us a bit of a head-start with it, so they're not pulling anything from under us. She's still going to be a mage/support, so even though they might change her kit, they're not remaking her from the ground-up. Also, speaking as a game designer, the design philosophy they currently have in place is a step up from their older one (Zileas's safer and more abstract school of design), and is more in-line with the overarching design philosophies of game design in general (read "The Art of Game Design" by Jesse Schell to get a good idea--it's currently the best thing we have to go by, since video games as a whole are still a relatively new medium). It's not just a decision they decided to make, but rather a shift into the right direction--part-for-part, it's an improvement over what they started with, in every way that's relevant to League of Legends as a video game. You can defend every aspect of their current criteria considering the context of League of Legends as a video game, and as the kind of video game it is--there are no inherent flaws to it, the only question is whether or not Riot's designs live up to it (I'd argue "no," which is the entire premise of my redesign project--the reasoning behind this design direction is laid out pretty well here and here).

But yeah, I wholeheartedly agree with you regarding champion reworks being better suited for a sequel game--hence why I only pitch my redesigns as "LoL 2." I know people are attached to things that are problematic in terms of design, and I don't want to take anything away from anybody if it can be avoided, but I am also uncompromising and won't let anything stand in the way of progress. A sequel game allows both of those to be satisfied! It also works better for Riot in terms of longevity, because it gives them a few more years of their current state of "constantly releasing new playable content" which can be attributed to a major part of Riot's continued success.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Healurownbum View Post
<snip>
Thank you--I'll certainly be keeping these in mind when I get back to the drawing board, so hopefully I'll be able to make something out of it!

If there's something that a player loves that isn't detrimental to gameplay (*coughAPTryndcough*), it's worth preserving.

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Originally Posted by Lady Bunny View Post
I play mostly supports and female champions so that's already a bias on my side. More specifically, I have an obsession with paper fans (I have a collection of them) and when I saw a champion, in my favorite game, was going to use fans, imagine my delight! I also liked her skillset a lot, and I truly believe that she was one of the BEST characters that LoL has. Her lore, her look, her skills, her skins worked so perfectly with each other. I also loved how she had darker skin (just for variety, not in a BLACK CHAMP WHERE?! kinda thing).

I also LOVED the way she walked, I lived for that sassy runway walk that she had. It was one my most favorite walking animations (my fave is Cass).
Out of curiosity, would you like to see a champion with that kind of attitude, whose playstyle was all about those fans?


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Malah

Senior Member

03-10-2013

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Originally Posted by RiotAmes View Post
Her fans aren't permanently removed from her story, but she no longer needs to channel her strength through them. She has sufficient self-control to do that on her own now.
This is the point you need to emphasize.

I dislike the removal of the fans because they're removing cool factor from her, tbh, but I can deal with it if there's any reason behind it with the character. If you want to make them character development, you need to tell us that. Her fans were the conduit for her magic: she learned wind magic from Janna according to her lore and used her fans to utilize it. While in-game this influence is most obvious with her Q, auto-attacks, and use of her fans to cast her other spells, in her Judgment her use of magic is outright wind based. You could just say that you decided to ditch the fans because you decided they didn't do anything, but first of all, that's not true, and it's pretty much a cop-out. Give the lore junkies something to nibble on. You're not giving us anything to justify the removal of her fans, and that's why we're not happy with it.

Putting her fans away could be a great character development piece if the lore department decided to do something with it, but your end needs to work on it. You can't just leave it up the player's imagination. I'm part of the (tragically, foolishly optimistic) group who assumes that the lore department is actually working on something to make up for the complete lack of content from them over a year, but the rest of the population needs something to grasp onto as well.


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tharillandre

Recruiter

03-10-2013

@RiotAmes
Please, please, please tell me that she still says, "an enlightened decision", In her traditional skin that is all i ask. Imo im really excited for how this is going to turn out for karma and her fans (both of them).


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Ragelx

Member

03-10-2013

KARMA! YOU HAVE BEEN RESSURECTED!! ALL HAIL THE QUEEN!

P.S. Thank you Riot :P

-Ragelx


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HarryOrunitia

Senior Member

03-10-2013

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Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
WoT
I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to disagree then, because I just don't think there is no place in a moba game for complexity, realistic character development and unusual character types.
You bring up the competitive part, but in the competitive side of the game, all that counts is the champion's gameplay, and that is not what we're talking about. I'm sure if Karma had a kit that made her a must pick or ban, she would be a lot more popular and she would be played in tournaments, events and such.

The lore/personality/visual design stuff is just an extra, a bonus for casual players or people who are more interested in that kind of thing, so what harm could it possibly do for it to be a little more complex and sophisticated?

I agree that not EVERY champion should be like that, actually I agree that MOST champions shouldn't be like that, but when you have such a huge pool of playable characters, I would think it's perfectly ok to have some that are a little more difficult to get into, or that aren't as "readable" as the others. I mean, League of Legends already has a bunch of signature characters, it's the reason why right now as I'm typing this I can only see Ashe, Teemo, Kayle, Warwick and Ryze in the background. They are the recognizable ones, the ones beginners will probably be drawn to, and they are the ones who need to fit into very strict readable archetypes. But there are also many "critically acclaimed" champions that are never ever depicted in official promotional art (such as Orianna) who have much more complex designs, who don't really fit into the classical hero/villain type, and have more complicated stories and personalities. And they still seem to have a place in the League, as long as they are viable.