So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
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A Season in Hell

Junior Member

03-10-2013

pleeeeeassee give her back her fans... its why we played her...


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

03-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Blade Yago View Post
<snip>
Keep in mind, that usually the less abstract themes are the most successful. Can abstract things like "vengeance" work as compliments to a main, concrete, easily-graspable and conveyable theme? Sure!

What's the "first impression" of a champion that a player will have, and what they'll base any assumptions about their gameplay off of? Their visual design.

While this may not affect you very much as a more experienced player with all the time in the world to learn about each and every new champion, newer players (and spectators!) need to have a good idea of how each champion should work just by looking at them--usually, that split judgment is all the opportunity they'd have. This is why lore must always, always act as a compliment to a visual design (and all prevalent visual elements therein), rather than the reasoning behind a kit.

Designing from lore instead of kit, more often than not, creates a situation wherein the player must read the lore to understand the champion--in other words, they must do something that isn't gameplay-related to understand the game. Visual elements must not act as a compliment to lore-based elements. "Why does Karma have these fans? She isn't really doing anything fan-like with them aside from that conal nuke/heal!" "Well, just read her lore, if you want to have a good idea of what she's supposed to do." Imagine the confusion generated from that, as opposed to "Who is this chick with the huge gauntlets and what does she do?" "Oh, that's Vi, and she punches stuff really hard." Of course!

When you can tell what a champion is all about at a glance, you give the player that much more time to play the game and get better at it, instead of having to memorize 5-9 bits of text, tie those bits of text to particle effects, and tie those particle effects to 100+ champions. That's about the equivalent of studying for college finals--and that's not the kind of homework you want to thrust onto new players right off the bat. And of course, this isn't necessarily an area where every champion excels, but Riot's getting better!


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HarryOrunitia

Senior Member

03-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestya View Post
Did...did you just say Karma is one of the "best" designed characters in gaming history? Are you KIDDING me? No, just no. She had a TON of problems which is why she's one of the LEAST popular characters in LoL. Visually and play wise, she has a ton of problems. I have no issue if you liked it, but do NOT kid yourself into that belief of being "one of the best" in gaming history.
The point is that that is just a matter of tastes and opinions. Whether you agree or not, there are people in this community who believe that she is one of the best designed champions in League. Maybe we're the completely insane ones, or maybe you just don't "get" her, but that's beside the point, which is that no matter how many, there are people who are THAT passionate about Karma, and that alone is enough reason to try to preserve her and her concept somehow, especially when you're a thousand times the company you were when she was released, and now you can probably afford to have one single niche champion out of 110.

We aren't completely blind or in denial, we KNOW she needed work, we KNOW she wasn't viable and she needed to be fixed, we were even asking for it. We were willing to compromise, willing to let go of some of the things we loved about her, in order for her to be more popular, more viable, more playable and more profitable. But this is no compromise. This rework doesn't just require us to "let go of some things". We have to let go of the whole character, and that is just unacceptable.


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HarryOrunitia

Senior Member

03-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
Keep in mind, that usually the less abstract themes are the most successful. Can abstract things like "vengeance" work as compliments to a main, concrete, easily-graspable and conveyable theme? Sure!

What's the "first impression" of a champion that a player will have, and what they'll base any assumptions about their gameplay off of? Their visual design.

While this may not affect you very much as a more experienced player with all the time in the world to learn about each and every new champion, newer players (and spectators!) need to have a good idea of how each champion should work just by looking at them--usually, that split judgment is all the opportunity they'd have. This is why lore must always, always act as a compliment to a visual design (and all prevalent visual elements therein), rather than the reasoning behind a kit.

Designing from lore instead of kit, more often than not, creates a situation wherein the player must read the lore to understand the champion--in other words, they must do something that isn't gameplay-related to understand the game. Visual elements must not act as a compliment to lore-based elements. "Why does Karma have these fans? She isn't really doing anything fan-like with them aside from that conal nuke/heal!" "Well, just read her lore, if you want to have a good idea of what she's supposed to do." Imagine the confusion generated from that, as opposed to "Who is this chick with the huge gauntlets and what does she do?" "Oh, that's Vi, and she punches stuff really hard." Of course!

When you can tell what a champion is all about at a glance, you give the player that much more time to play the game and get better at it, instead of having to memorize 5-9 bits of text, tie those bits of text to particle effects, and tie those particle effects to 100+ champions. That's about the equivalent of studying for college finals--and that's not the kind of homework you want to thrust onto new players right off the bat. And of course, this isn't necessarily an area where every champion excels, but Riot's getting better!
You know, you are right about that. You are completely right and that's something I talked about in many of the previous posts. The problem is that to me, the new Karma fails at even doing that. There is no immediate readability/recognizability in her new design. Skarma is no Vi. The new source of her power is the Ionian standard on her back now, but that's even more ridiculous than the fans, and it DEFINITELY requires you to go read the lore to understand.


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Healurownbum

Senior Member

03-10-2013

Increase Q range slightly R/W Roots enemy target for 1s and increase AA Range slightly is all i wanted XD But we will see what happens.


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

03-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryOrunitia View Post
You know, you are right about that. You are completely right and that's something I talked about in many of the previous posts. The problem is that to me, the new Karma fails at even doing that. There is no immediate readability/recognizability in her new design. Skarma is no Vi. The new source of her power is the Ionian standard on her back now, but that's even more ridiculous than the fans, and it DEFINITELY requires you to go read the lore to understand.
I don't really know anything about Skarma's kit--but I will agree with you, a floating jade Yin Yang is a bit less immediate than a huge fist in your face in terms of "what does this do"?

But that's where coherent kits based around readily understandable themes and premises comes in.

(I know I'm going to get a lot of flak for this, but) take a look at the Karma redesign, for example. You don't have to read any lore to get the concept of "this chick is going to turn your offense against you"--it's all in her name, and in her crazy floaty Yin Yang. This isn't something you have to dig through lore to find out about--it's stuff that exists in real life, and that's why it works. Hell, you could even just tell someone "this chick is all about turning your attacks against you" and they'd get it ("ooooh, like 'karma'!")--they wouldn't have to so much as read a tooltip to understand how to approach her in-game, or imagine how she might be played.

I know you've spoken about her fans a bit, but I'm going to have to ask you--"what did her fans convey about any sort of principle that Karma was supposed to stand for?" "When you see fans, what do you think they'd be capable of and what would you expect of them?"

When choosing a champion's weapon-of-choice, a lot must be taken into account--if anything, this is going to carry a huge amount of weight in terms of conveyance. Weapons cannot simply play second banana, they have to dictate the very foundation of how a champion plays, even with a distinction as basic as ranged weaponry and melee weaponry.

Could fans work as part of a champion's design, to convey something that is often tied to fans? Sure! Fans are best known for being able to push air (and to a lesser extent, hide blades) and in most works of fiction in which they are used as weaponry, tend to compliment a more acrobatic fighting style that focuses around flowy movements, possibly accompanied with the ability to disarm opponents or catch them off-guard. I can think of at least two playstyles that could revolve around the use of fans, but none of these convey what is meant to be conveyed with Karma.

I know you're attached to that aspect of her design, but I hope we can both come to the conclusion that, while they were a neat touch in terms of being the "elegant diplomat" character she was (which is still a viable archetype that I hope Riot resurrects in the future), they don't really do a stellar job of conveying whatever her core concept could be identified as, be it the duality of her old kit (Yin-Yang heavy), the punishment of aggressiveness featured in the redesign (Karma heavy), or whatever Skarizard has prepared for us with her new iteration.


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phatcat09

Senior Member

03-10-2013

This thread hijacked by itemsguy --- I'm out. Any and all discussion will now be turned into "You're sutpid I'm right" followed by droves of people upvoting someone who's verbose.


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HarryOrunitia

Senior Member

03-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
I don't really know anything about Skarma's kit--but I will agree with you, a floating jade Yin Yang is a bit less immediate than a huge fist in your face in terms of "what does this do"?

But that's where coherent kits based around readily understandable themes and premises comes in.

(I know I'm going to get a lot of flak for this, but) take a look at the Karma redesign, for example. You don't have to read any lore to get the concept of "this chick is going to turn your offense against you"--it's all in her name, and in her crazy floaty Yin Yang. This isn't something you have to dig through lore to find out about--it's stuff that exists in real life, and that's why it works. Hell, you could even just tell someone "this chick is all about turning your attacks against you" and they'd get it ("ooooh, like 'karma'!")--they wouldn't have to so much as read a tooltip to understand how to approach her in-game, or imagine how she might be played.

I know you've spoken about her fans a bit, but I'm going to have to ask you--"what did her fans convey about any sort of principle that Karma was supposed to stand for?" "When you see fans, what do you think they'd be capable of and what would you expect of them?"

When choosing a champion's weapon-of-choice, a lot must be taken into account--if anything, this is going to carry a huge amount of weight in terms of conveyance. Weapons cannot simply play second banana, they have to dictate the very foundation of how a champion plays, even with a distinction as basic as ranged weaponry and melee weaponry.

Could fans work as part of a champion's design, to convey something that is often tied to fans? Sure! Fans are best known for being able to push air (and to a lesser extent, hide blades) and in most works of fiction in which they are used as weaponry, tend to compliment a more acrobatic fighting style that focuses around flowy movements, possibly accompanied with the ability to disarm opponents or catch them off-guard. I can think of at least two playstyles that could revolve around the use of fans, but none of these convey what is meant to be conveyed with Karma.

I know you're attached to that aspect of her design, but I hope we can both come to the conclusion that, while they were a neat touch in terms of being the "elegant diplomat" character she was (which is still a viable archetype that I hope Riot resurrects in the future), they don't really do a stellar job of conveying whatever her core concept could be identified as, be it the duality of her old kit (Yin-Yang heavy), the punishment of aggressiveness featured in the redesign (Karma heavy), or whatever Skarizard has prepared for us with her new iteration.
Honestly, I don't think Karma's fans were so completely detached from her gameplay and concept. They could've reworked her W, E and R (or just one or two of them, really) to better feature the fans. Her connection to Janna and air/wind magic could've been explored some more. I just find it hard to believe that it was impossible to keep the fans while also keeping her a ranged mage.

And even if they were only there to add personality, what's so wrong with that in the context of League? I agree that it's not particularly easy to read her gameplay from that, I agree it's a weird design choice, but we can't ignore the fact that this game is full of characters like that, who either have weapons they don't really use (Soraka?) or have weapons they could probably do without (Lux?)

Ah, not to mention that two small, green jade dragons that are arranged to barely resemble the Yin and Yang symbol, aren't nearly as strong of a connection to that concept as her original black and white design was.


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SexyShady

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Member

03-10-2013

The one thing I liked about Karma was the fact that everything about her skills were situational. An extremely powerful burst support (with mantra shield) that fared amazingly well in 1v1's if you built her right. I'm kind of sad that Karma may be going into the APC role where the kit is not based on situation, but combos. Can you tell I don't play mid often?


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MeanderingBeaver

Senior Member

03-10-2013

Any chance we could at least see her fans come back during an emote or something?