So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
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beradical

Senior Member

03-09-2013

This has needed to happen for a LOONG time.

Thanks Riot!


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Illg0re

Member

03-09-2013

I'm sooooo exited about her kit changes. =) I still hope that the changes are minor fixes / tweaks and not a complete new ability set. Karma was my first champ and it would hurt my karma feeling when she would loose any of these abilities. I'm waiting exited for more news/facts^^.
btw, a week ago, I started a discussion about her rework and my thoughts on this. I would be glad if people would join and share their thoughts there (at least until we get some more detailed info here^^)
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=3171279


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Mihlo

Senior Member

03-09-2013

The walls of text on the previous page pretty much hit the nail.

I am excited for Karma, I am glad that after 2 years she will finally see the light of day, I'm just worried that it won't be the Karma I instabought after trying her out those two years ago. Even though she isn't viable she is undeniably fun to play as.

I still want that in the new Karma.


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Katsuni

Senior Member

03-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotAmes View Post
but that's all non-cannon and I won't subject you to my fan fictions.
I wouldn't mind; it can't be any worse than the Soraka lore remake was, since it seems you've actually put some thought into it from the rest of your post.


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Bes7iA

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Senior Member

03-09-2013

pleeeease dont make her dance like the harlem shake


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Severian NA

Senior Member

03-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinokami54 View Post
WoT.
As I said in the reply to Harry, I was both exaggerating and kinda going off on a bit of a rant about assuming too much, especially negatively. I also have a very specific agenda, and what little disagreement there was is rooted in what I feel might be working against getting a response from Riot that might result in some cooperation or acknowledgement, or something, anything that will make this less of a blow.

We are in complete agreement that this Karma remake is very hard to understand, for many different reasons. Tis not Karma. This is Skarma. A new take that replaces an old friend.
Riot hire very talented people, and they also seem to be nice people. So I was exaggerating and generalizing and making a sad attempt at humour with the whole "single braincell" thing. And it was also self-irony. I expected more of them. It is obvious that current Karma is vastly superiour to this remade one. But I also try to remind myself that I don't know much about how they worked on this, what problems they had, what things had to be considered and what ultimately led to them doing it in this way. How could they see so little of value in her, that they left almost nothing. I can't shake the suspicion that it wasn't an informed decision, they didn't have any real insight in what we liked. So you see. I'm a bit unstable! XD and I made the stupid mistake of going off on a rant that just lost touch with the specific post I was commenting almost right away.

It is a real tragedy, replacing such a unique and well executed personality, her subtle strength and wry sense of humour, with ...battle Karma. Inna powa in YOUR FACE! I can't fathom how the designers could not see that this was a complete nosedive. Not because Skarma isn't an interesting or well designed champion, she seems to be, but because she is a far less interesting person, with a lot more flair. I mean, if you look at the chinese splash, and then at the new concept... Egads! Are they blind!? I just can't come to terms with this, it seems. So there is a severe lack of inner peace to be found with me, and it is starting to show too much that I am fighting to stay rational and question my reactions and judgement of talented and accomplished artists. (Though of course, they are human and capable of making bad decisions too.)

I seem to have forgotten specifically what I disagreed with, and started to talk about my approach to this and the reasons behind. That was possibly because I wanted to explain why I thought it was important to make sure not to step on anyones toes and stick to what can be done something about. If I go back to your post, and turn my brain on, the only beef I really had with was the candy thing. I felt it was a really bad idea to take what was meant to be a thoughtful gesture, and hold it up like that. Not that you meant any harm, I completely understand what you were trying to say, but if it the gesture was genuinely meant to be thoughtful, I would avoid any suggestion otherwise as a matter of tact.

Also, I would simply have dropped any reference to sexyness, because I am afraid Riot will go "Oh, that again" and shut down brain activity XD Many people go bananas about Karma becoming sensual, as a continuation of the old "OMG sexy" discussion. Some, like you, aren't doing anything of the kind, but many completely disregard the aforementioned actual tragedy.

So I wouldn't mention the sexy, because I am afraid some of those discussions have scarred Riot for life XD

But yes: I failed badly, and I apologize, because it is really stupid to reply to something and put so little thought into how it will come across. I was afraid Riot was doing the very thing I did right there. Letting everything you have been getting annoyed at colour your interpretation and response to a degree where you weren't really seeing this particular case, but going off about everything and everybody, myself included. So I apologize again, and I deeply respect you making such a thoughtful and reflected reply to my complete misfire. My hat off to you, sir.

So, actually reading what you are saying makes it obvious that we agree on pretty much everything, but I suspect you are handling the situation with more grace than I am. I feel like there has been so little communication, and the way they handled this thread sort of ignited the feeling of being slighted to the point where I overcompensated in order to ensure I wouldn't be to blame if they were actually ignoring me, and the other people who made empassioned, well reasoned petitions. You are, in essence, saying exactly what I've been thinking, but I have been so afraid of sealing the deal as it is, that seem to have I crossed the line to pathetic a while ago. I'm dangerously close to bowing and scraping before the Riot overlords, hoping they will deign to save some of my Karma.

And at the same time, I am also sick and tired of all the people who only consider themselves, and level the most ridicilous accusations at people who genuinely try to help either them personally or the community. And when I tried to give feedback in a reflected considerate manner, even a direct reply to Morello is ignored. And I could live with that, I am not entitled to a reply, and it could have been missed. But there were a lot of well formulated concerns, and the replies from Riot seemed to miss all that really touched upon Karma being scrapped.
Add to the mix a remake I have dreaded and looked forward to for a very long time, which ended in the worst possible outcome, with a vintage skin that was hardly retaining the current Karma. I felt like there was a slight hope they might realize the potential, and show that they really did care by improving on that skin. Silence has so far been the answer...

So, to summarize: I apologize for not really paying attention and ending up opening my mouth in reply to something that was more my inner dialogue and general frustrations than what you said >.< Now that I actually paid attention, both to the original post and your reply, I think you are spot on, it must be very insightful and profound because I could have said so myself! Well, disregarding any mention of sexy and candy. I think those might blow up in my face. Uh, and I think my brain has ceased to work properly, so I might have failed to make this a coherent reply. If so, just point out where I stopped making sense and I will get back to you when I can think straight (if that ever happens .


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Healurownbum

Senior Member

03-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Severian NA View Post
Oh, I tend to put things a bit too extremely when I want to make a point. I didn't mean to insinuate you were being terribly irrational. I think Riot should be able to take a little indignation because just like they are human, so are we. I was really refering to the post you quoted, though. They may have been trying to ease the news by holding up the classic skin, but when Morello explicitly states that they did that to be considerate, and when it is our best hope of keeping Karma, it is a really bad idea, as I see it, to call it a mere distraction.

However, I may very well be too careful, and reading too much into their silence. I am basically trying to maximise the chances that they will respond, and that the response will salvage something from this. So I, personally, wouldn't focus too much on how I feel about the remake. I am probably too worried that the actual possible solution is going to get drowned, and I am probably trying too hard to be reasonable and friendly, because I too feel like they have shrugged us off, and if it ends up with no reply but what we have gotten so far, they won't be able to shrug it off with "I don't reply to negative/non-constructive/etc." like Morello pretty much answered a (not really nicely put) question as to why he was so selective when responding.

I also recognize that I went off on a bit of a trip with that last post, and it kinda reflects that I am putting every effort into not being someone they can brush off as impolite, and making them take notice of the one thing I see any hope for. I feel like asking some very pointed questions, but that won't do any good. To be direct, I don't understand how they can justify ignoring us, and it sure as "#&"#% won't be my fault... It is very possible that they are thinking this through before trying to disarm the bomb XD, but I fervently don't want this to be what it feels like.

The last post Morello replied to, if I remember correctly, pretty much accused him of only replying to what was convenient, and it really looks like that is what they have been doing. Just "but she is really badass!!!1111" and hoping we go away. As I said, I replied directly to a question by Morello, and I thought I was being perfectly polite, but he replied to a different answer made later on. He might have just missed my reply, but I was really starting to feel like he was taking this reaction, expected or not, very badly.

So I tried to display that I didn't want to attack anyone, because if this ends with no reply from Riot, I will be forced to conclude that they really did hold up a poster remake, try to sell us their decision with fancy words, and only acknowledge the replies they favoured. I really don't want that to happen, because it will mean this ends in a lost champion, and a slap in the face from a company I put my faith in, especially regarding this remake.

Maybe I took it too far. Maybe I am as much in denial about this as I was about the remake ending with me keeping enough of Karma to feel like the same champion. But I will be damned if I let my emotions get the better of me, and end up being someone who can be blamed for not being worthy of a reply. So I do suspect that I am a little upset XD Sorry.
Terribly sorry mate but i couldnt read it, pretty dyslexic and i kept getting lost and it wouldnt let me zoom in >.<


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Severian NA

Senior Member

03-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Healurownbum View Post
Terribly sorry mate but i couldnt read it, pretty dyslexic and i kept getting lost and it wouldnt let me zoom in >.<
No worries! I have ADHD, so I know how it is when your brain refuses to cooperate! Basically I see your point, and I might be too worried about offending people. I also ended up talking about things in general and failed to realize that you might think I was aiming all of it at you. I think that is what I was saying. Brain has shut down again.


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Healurownbum

Senior Member

03-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Severian NA View Post
No worries! I have ADHD, so I know how it is when your brain refuses to cooperate! Basically I see your point, and I might be too worried about offending people. I also ended up talking about things in general and failed to realize that you might think I was aiming all of it at you. I think that is what I was saying. Brain has shut down again.

Dude so far i think your pretty damn amazing, i never ever been good at expressing myself well. And Karma has always been important to me my safehaven. So getting you and the other guy being able to show what i feel and think to a pretty good extent helps me alot. Im grateful never seen anything you said as a insult to me. Im grateful.


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RiotAmes

QA Analyst

03-09-2013
29 of 43 Riot Posts

This is going to be a long post, so stay with me.

Why Relaunch?

Relaunch team has a few different types of content we create- you're most familiar with the Visual Upgrades we've been doing. For the most part, there have been subtle changes- TF picked up a coat, Nid's waist is bigger than a pencil, etc.

What, then, is a Relaunch? A relaunch is when we take a champion back to the drawing board because we feel like we didn't get it right the first time and just improving the champion's visuals won't be sufficient. This isn't a decision we make lightly and it involves considerably more work than a VU does. For context, all of the VUs starting with Soraka have been released after we started work on Karma.

Ask yourself how you think someone with fans fights. Is it a shield? A tether? Is the most powerful manifestation of this person who fights with fans the ability to improve their other abilities?

We didn't feel that was the case. The fans were a distraction from what she was supposed to be, then. (a note: yes, we could have spent time forcing the fans to work, but that didn't work out the first time) Instead, we looked at her Inner Flame and Mantra - this spoke of an inner strength, uncompromising in the face of adversity. That strength was also a source of power for her. This made sense, this wasn't 'in the way'. Digging deeper, we decided that it was this strength and her devotion to her country that we felt made her powerful and memorable. More than a politician who happened to fight, but a legend in her own right.

That leads to the Karma you see now. Her fans aren't permanently removed from her story, but she no longer needs to channel her strength through them. She has sufficient self-control to do that on her own now. She is still the voice of her people. And while we aren't against retcons, Karma's story is a progression, not a replacement.

I've read every page of this thread. You aren't unheard- good and bad. Getting Karma ready for release is taking a lot of the team's time. There's been comments that we went into this uninformed or didn't ask people who played Karma what they thought - this isn't the case. While we didn't put it to a forum poll (and likely never will), many Karma players were asked for their thoughts about old Karma and new Karma alike. We've had a lot of good feedback. We went into this knowing that not everyone would be happy with the changes, but are confident that we've made the right decision.

The other running set of comments were that we haven't talked enough about why we made the changes we have. To that end, I'm going to stick around for a bit and talk Karma. It's my night off, but anyone who reads my posts knows that I care enough about the community to put the time in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bes7iA View Post
pleeeease dont make her dance like the harlem shake
But we have this cool hidden passive that- oh, fine.

(I'm kidding - no harlem shake for Karma)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
I wouldn't mind; it can't be any worse than the Soraka lore remake was, since it seems you've actually put some thought into it from the rest of your post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeePok View Post
I would very much like to be subjugated to your fan fictions. Please share some or at least post a link to where we can find them.
Suit yourself. If interest is still there, I'll put one up sometime soon.