Morello, let's talk AP Ezreal

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skippymcgee

Senior Member

03-08-2013

Can Xypherous jump in here? Or Scarizard perhaps? Someone that actually looks at balance on a more regular basis?


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Blaine Tog

Senior Member

03-08-2013

Reasons I like AP Ezreal over AD Ezreal:

Autoattacking is boring. Landing Lichbane Qs is fun.

W on AD Ezreal is basically useless; I know it has the support aspect and can help stack up his passive but it just feels like a wet noodle. On AP Ezreal, it hurts. Hard, and in an AoE.

E on AD Ezreal is basically just a get-out-of-positioning-error-free card. AP Ezreal, on the other hand, gets to look for interesting moments to Arcane Shift on top of someone. That allows you to approach teamfights from a completely different angle because you're constantly searching for moments to dramatically increase your risk in exchange for pretty good reward.

R on AD Ezreal falls off in damage pretty fast. It can snipe someone, sure, but the AD ratio is pretty meh and as soon as the tank or support builds a Bulwark it basically becomes an easy way to stack up his passive at the start of a fight. AP Ezreal's ult is a serious nuke all game long, plus he can use it to greater effect during laning if he goes mid.

So, even though I know Ezreal is better played AD than AP, that's why I generally prefer him AP. He's more fun to me that way. I'm more of an AP carry than AD carry player in general too so I like being able to adapt the champion to my playstyle and mid matchup knowledge rather than having to deal with a support who may or may not be a support main.


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Fisherman Fizz

Senior Member

03-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
It's because you're highly valuing the benefits, and undervaluing the costs. If both were balanced and viable, and had good play-patterns, then fine - there's no reason not to. The things I said aren't constraints, they're costs you pay when making changes like this. Costs that are frequently not worth it.

If you want to play AP Ezreal, then it's fun, sure, but in the previous example it actually mentions the problem: "with CDR, you can chunk people every 1.5 seconds." If you think Nid spears are frustrating...

Skill shots are cool, we like them, they're not a free license to do anything though. In a world where that burst level is right, how poor or unsatisfying is Mystic Shot as AD? That's the issue is those things directly fight each other, and if it poses a risk to undoing something that is working well from a balance and play-pattern standpoint, then it's likely not worth it to make it work, especially when Lux has some overlaps too.
AP Ezreal isn't just some poke spamming champion that chunks with his Q and that's it, he's a much more burst oriented caster than Nidalee. You can build for high CDR and use Q often, but you can also focus on burst damage with stuff like LB, DCap, Void, etc.

One thing I want to say though is that AP Ezreal to me feels COMPLETELY different than AD. Like, the difference in playstyles is huge. With AD, the W and E spells feel like they are mostly for utility and I'm focusing on my autoattacks and Q, like an AD carry would be played. Playing as an AP puts a lot more importance on the damage from W and E and gives you a lot more burst potential. This means you have to make more decisions on how you should use them. Do you want to use E for damage, or should you save it in case you need the escape? That's not a kind of decision you make nearly as often on AD Ezreal, and he's not SUPPOSED to as an AD carry, similar to how Cait's net is mostly meant to be a repositioning tool.

In fights they play out completely differently too. AD Ezreal is mostly about poking with his Q and trying to autoattack as much as possible while using his E to keep him safe and his W to give his team AS when needed. AP isn't about staying back and getting out autoattacks, you're using your abilities much more often for damage. He's a caster that has lots of skillshots and huge damage when he lands them all. He has a really fast paced, skill shot focused feel that no other champion in the game has and it's really fun. I honestly have no idea how you think AP Ezreal offers nothing "new," he feels like a completely different champion when he's played AP and it's way more fun to me, and it's not some horribly toxic playstyle like AP Trynd or Yi were.

I mean seriously, he was originally played as a caster, AD used to be the off build. You can't just look at AP Ezreal as some kind of odd build because he's SUPPOSED to be a caster just as much as he's supposed to be an AD carry.


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Dragonsafe

Senior Member

03-08-2013

Ap ezreal is extremely strong late game... but he is non existent early game. But he's so safe it really doesn't matter.


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Morello

Lead Designer

03-08-2013
11 of 16 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by skippymcgee View Post
Can Xypherous jump in here? Or Scarizard perhaps? Someone that actually looks at balance on a more regular basis?
Good idea. What I represent here is our philosophy and principles on such things - ie where we prioritize values, but If there's a specific solution that would solve this, though, they're the best to talk to.


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Lycian7014

Senior Member

03-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman Fizz View Post
One thing I want to say though is that AP Ezreal to me feels COMPLETELY different than AD.
I'd quote your entire thing but frankly, I just want to give this highlight and point out this is exactly why Morello is showing that he just doesn't "get it" and his comparisons show his ignorance on the issue. Not trying to be disrespectful to him, but it almost seems at this point like he needs to try playing AP ezreal and then compare it to AD ezreal instead. Should we expect him to know how an "Off build" (I know we contend this, but even so, lets humor him for a moment) feels and how it plays differently? No, not really, otherwise we might not have even needed to get to this point.

Either way, Morello, you can't just say that Ezreal's Q is like Nidalee's Spearshot. It's not because it isn't her main farming tool at the moment, it isn't a part of 3 other damaging parts of her kit, and it isn't the only thing she's known for. Nidalee, regardless of AP or AD, has the ability to do some wave clearing through cougar, she's expected to be able to nail those spears. Ezreal, while required to know how to snipe with Q due to it being his AA replacement, does not have a wave clear aside from his ult, which an AP will save due to its higher power (well, at least in my case.) Nidalee has a snare in the form of her trap. She has a jump and a passive that gives her extra move speed. All Ezreal has is a flash, which as he mentioned above lets him flash out if he's AD, but if he's AP, Ezreal may choose to get into a unique position in order to get his burst in. It plays very differently and you need to take into account everything that he does and realize that AP ezreal would be quite viable if it weren't for the lack of CC that most mages and even assassins have now.


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Morello

Lead Designer

03-08-2013
12 of 16 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud273 View Post
Bolded a couple parts. Why wouldn't we support this?? Shouldn't we get some say in what's "desirable" in this game??
You do get some say, for sure - that's why we get on here! To be honest, though, it's not common people look at the long-term consequences to ideas that seem innocuous at first. We have to make tough decisions a lot, and nothing's without cost to other things - that's the reality in something more akin to an ecosystem.


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TheWaveWizard

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Senior Member

03-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
You do get some say, for sure - that's why we get on here! To be honest, though, it's not common people look at the long-term consequences to ideas that seem innocuous at first. We have to make tough decisions a lot, and nothing's without cost to other things - that's the reality in something more akin to an ecosystem.
You keep referring to AP Ez as an off build...but wasn't he intended to be able to do both? I don't get it. When Ez was released, AP was the main build and AD was the off-build. He was designed for both, wasn't he? I'm legitimately asking.


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Redeemed In Fire

Senior Member

03-08-2013

I'd just like morello to understand why we want AP Ezreal and multibuild champions in general --

AP Ezreal: He does get a different playstyle, mostly through the shifted spell use. He was also sold waaaay back when as a caster first and an AD character second.
Multibuild characters: TBH, it's just the potential. If you make a viable AP AND Ad character, it becomes a more wildcard pick, and that's really interesting. On top of simply just feeling like there is more ways to play a given champion.


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Malurth

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Senior Member

03-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
It's because you're highly valuing the benefits, and undervaluing the costs. If both were balanced and viable, and had good play-patterns, then fine - there's no reason not to. The things I said aren't constraints, they're costs you pay when making changes like this. Costs that are frequently not worth it.

If you want to play AP Ezreal, then it's fun, sure, but in the previous example it actually mentions the problem: "with CDR, you can chunk people every 1.5 seconds." If you think Nid spears are frustrating...

Skill shots are cool, we like them, they're not a free license to do anything though. In a world where that burst level is right, how poor or unsatisfying is Mystic Shot as AD? That's the issue is those things directly fight each other, and if it poses a risk to undoing something that is working well from a balance and play-pattern standpoint, then it's likely not worth it to make it work, especially when Lux has some overlaps too.
Nid spears are far longer range and do far more damage. Ezreal requires a lichbane for this to be effective, and this pretty much only works against backline squishies (which your Q spams won't reach). Further, if you have a lichbane, 40% CDR, and enough AP to make those hurt a lot, then he's a late-game siege mage. You cannot get those stats quickly. What makes this worse than Xerath or Nidalee or Jayce or Lux or Heimerdinger or AP Kog, etc? This just rewards the player for picking well; if you're in a late game siege scenario and you have AP Ez, now's your time to shine.

AP Ez is fun because of a few things:
- Real fun sustained skillshot poking
- Just about the highest burst in the game (seriously)
- Dat mobility
- Dat ult

Basically, he's a slippery poke mage until he finds an opening and gibs someone. To be honest, very few champs have that playstyle, and this is clearly different from AD Ezreal. Though the line gets blurred a bit when you throw in muramana on AP.

Personally, I find AP Ezreal to be very fun and AD Ezreal to be a snoozefest. I don't think AP should be gutted.

To be frank, I'm extremely confident that AP and AD Ezreal can both be viable and balanced, and I see no reason other than time constraints to not try to make this work. So what if they have similar play patterns? If there's no other downside (which I'm confident there isn't, if worked on), then why not? Perhaps some people would just like to lane Ezreal mid instead of a duo lane. Even if they play similarly. (Which they don't. AP is burst, AD is sustained.) Further, they can even be refined such that AP has a significantly different play pattern anyway; that 40% CDR + mystic shot reduc is something fairly unique to AP. Sure, it's no AP/AD nidalee, but not everything has to be.

However, I'm not going to hold my breath for changes. You let AD TF rot for years.