Morello, let's talk AP Ezreal

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skippymcgee

Senior Member

03-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Bolded a couple parts. This seems like something we wouldn't want to support, honestly. It's likely why we didn't support AP Ezreal when there was original intent there.

Even if it's fun, it still doesn't mean it's desirable to have in the game.
Wouldn't the question, then, be whether or not he's 'unfun' to play against? It's no different than Ryze spell-slinging some Q's after his passive rings out a few times. He has high burst potential, but also has something he can potentially do sustain damage with.


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Morello

Lead Designer

03-08-2013
10 of 16 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by zlefin View Post
Of course it's possible to make to make the spell feel good on both ad and ap builds without being absurd on one; the question is whether the method of doing so is sufficiently satisfying or overfavors hybridization. If you build a full list of constraints it must satisfy I could readily enough generate a solution. Maybe giving AP ezrael some new gameplay would satisfy them. It's pretty common for champs with possible AP and AD builds for people to want both of them to be useable.

And I disagree on the ap tryn excess nerf; I think it was nice having an alternate build plan be viable.
It's because you're highly valuing the benefits, and undervaluing the costs. If both were balanced and viable, and had good play-patterns, then fine - there's no reason not to. The things I said aren't constraints, they're costs you pay when making changes like this. Costs that are frequently not worth it.

If you want to play AP Ezreal, then it's fun, sure, but in the previous example it actually mentions the problem: "with CDR, you can chunk people every 1.5 seconds." If you think Nid spears are frustrating...

Skill shots are cool, we like them, they're not a free license to do anything though. In a world where that burst level is right, how poor or unsatisfying is Mystic Shot as AD? That's the issue is those things directly fight each other, and if it poses a risk to undoing something that is working well from a balance and play-pattern standpoint, then it's likely not worth it to make it work, especially when Lux has some overlaps too.


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zlefin

Senior Member

03-08-2013

It's not about undervaluing the costs; I just diagree on how difficult it would be to achieve both at a balanced and viable point.
And it doesn't have to undo any existing work; it should be possible to have ad ez be almost completely unaffected while modifying ap ez; and somewhat affecting hybrid ez.

You talk like changes can't be reverted and pose huge risks for minimal benefits; I just don't think the problem is nearly as hard as you say it is.
And what you're saying are constraints; constraints about balancing poke damage between the two and other such considerations; there are ways to satisfy all of them.


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rootsoflust

Senior Member

03-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
It's because you're highly valuing the benefits, and undervaluing the costs. If both were balanced and viable, and had good play-patterns, then fine - there's no reason not to. The things I said aren't constraints, they're costs you pay when making changes like this. Costs that are frequently not worth it.

If you want to play AP Ezreal, then it's fun, sure, but in the previous example it actually mentions the problem: "with CDR, you can chunk people every 1.5 seconds." If you think Nid spears are frustrating...

Skill shots are cool, we like them, they're not a free license to do anything though. In a world where that burst level is right, how poor or unsatisfying is Mystic Shot as AD? That's the issue is those things directly fight each other, and if it poses a risk to undoing something that is working well from a balance and play-pattern standpoint, then it's likely not worth it to make it work, especially when Lux has some overlaps too.
How would adding an ap ratio to ez's Q make him OP? You have the numbers and gold translation of stats to look at the max one can built AD and like wise with AP then just scale accordingly.
I think the most frustrating part of ap ez is ppl feel he is slowing being taken away from them for no reason other than LAZINESS


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9Heart

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Senior Member

03-08-2013

Actually, this argument isn't going to go anywhere because both sides are never going to change their mind. Whenever Morello responds you guys just have to come up with one more thing instead of just accepting that AP Ezreal will never be official as an ap carry and that they are never going to change Ezreal in a way that both AD and AP are balanced. At this point I have respect for Morello for just continuing to try and reason with you guys and try and have you guys understand why they have not and will not make the change


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Jake Compton

Senior Member

03-08-2013

Quote:
Bolded a couple parts. This seems like something we wouldn't want to support, honestly. It's likely why we didn't support AP Ezreal when there was original intent there.

Even if it's fun, it still doesn't mean it's desirable to have in the game.
Darius's 400+ true damage ult refreshes on kill.
Wanted to bold some unfun things. Thank god you made his ult go off in 12 seconds atleast.
But in all honesty, there are a lot of unfun/toxic things i could mention in this game. Dont see why ap ez cant fly


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ZetsubouFallen

Senior Member

03-08-2013

Just remove Ezreal On hit effects of Q, then you can buff him like you want.

It's just plain bad that he can proc Triforce-Lichbane-IBG.


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Valtièl

Senior Member

03-08-2013

*edit* (oops meant his 'W') Concerning his 'W', what if it applied a short light-weight slow when it hits enemies? something like %20 slow for 1-1.5 seconds? Or maybe the slow increases the closer the enemy is when they're hit.


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Arai Kitsune

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Senior Member

03-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arai Kitsune View Post
Alright, first off, thanks for taking the time to reply Morello. I admit it was a bit unexpected to refresh my thread and suddenly have a red post and a bunch of replies, especially with few or no replies on similar threads.

I'm actually curious how you see Nidalee's AP and AD builds as being different from Ezreal's AD and AP builds? As AP Nidalee you primarily rely on landing powerful skillshots, playing keep away, having a stronger heal, and relying on Lich Bane procs to push turrets. As AD, spears are nice but not nearly so potent, and you rely on the heal more for the AS boost, primarily taking advantage of that and your Takedown in cougar form for executes.

As AD Ezreal, you use your ult or W just to get some passive stacks, and in W's case buff the AS of your allies, but then just throw out a few Qs while autoattacking at relatively short range, using your E to reposition. As AP you play either as a powerful poke, similar to AP Nidalee, or as a burst assassin, similar to Leblanc based off of the scenario, either standing back and landing continual Qs for high damage due to Lich Bane along with some AoE Ws, and using your E either to escape and continue poking or to jump in and execute with the rest of your combo. Your ultimate also becomes much more potent for a variety of things, it helps with a big push, the damage is higher so a cross map snipe is more likely to succeed, and it's teamfight damage is significantly higher as well.



I get where you're coming from on Tryndamere, but I don't think we can really justify comparing the two. The core difference is, AP Tryndamere created both frustrating gameplay to face, and didn't try to work with his rage mechanic or the crit that his gameplay is based off of. Now, at least one of those things are fixed, he does need to work with his rage, so in that sense it's better designed than before.

Ezreal on the other hand, the only thing he's not directly working with when built as AP is his attack speed passive. Gameplay wise though, despite the fact that the passive hardly benefits him, he does have incentive to do the same thing AD has to do to stack it up in the first place, and that's land skillshots, which is Ezreal's main gameplay mechanic.

Referring to what I said earlier, while that may be somewhat understandable, why throw some champions under the bus, but allow others to work being built more than one way, even when those different ways are significant?(Nidalee)

Glad we're agreed on those being safe changes. I figure they are at least a start. If AD Ezreal wants satisfaction for using his main two spells, he's going to need to build more AD and less other ADC style stats, which I'd be more fine with. Alternatively, if you really want him to rely on the damage of those two spells, you'd need to buff their ratios and reduce something else, such as his passive, so that he became slightly more reliant on spells and less reliant on right clicking.

The Essence Flux change is primarily to open up a new passive slot while retaining his old AD oriented passive in some form. It also gives some incentive for AD Ezreal to actually level it. If it isn't obvious yet, I, and other AP Ezreal players, hate his passive. It means about as much to me as Ashe's Focus or Sion's Feel no Pain.

You want to know what the new gameplay to focus on is? Your skillshots mattering. That's really all it comes down to. AD Ezreal doesn't at all feel rewarding, he's just an ADC with some token skillshots. Are they important early on? Sure. Do they matter much as the game draws on? Not really, you just stack up your passive and right click away. We enjoy AP on him more because we don't like autoattacking to do most of our damage when we have an all skillshot kit. If we want to autoattack, there are plenty of choices, but if we want all skillshots, we're limited to like Lux, Orianna, and Xerath. Meanwhile we have a champion who was built as a skillshot mage/assassin, who we still want to play that way. Basically, what I'm saying is that AP ezreal is more engaging, and thus more fun than AD Ezreal.

Similarly, I know I and some other AP Ezreal players enjoyed AP Kog'Maw's gameplay before you started pushing him towards AD with changes like adding AD scaling to his ult(similar to what you did to Ezreal). I also enjoyed Corki back in beta, once again before he got pushed more towards AD, once again with AD scaling being added to his ult, and if I recall some AP nerfs as well. You noticing a pattern here? You release skillshot reliant champions that at first people play AP, and then because you intended for them to be AD in the first place you try to push people away from that and towards being autoattackers with supplementary skillshots. I don't like it, at all. Oh, and when I say you, I don't mean you personally Morello, I'm talking about Riot's balance team in general, and whoever pushed for those changes.
Morello, are you able to take a moment to respond to my response?


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March of Dimes

Senior Member

03-08-2013

With nerfs to ranged slow procs, nerfs to crit chance on trinity, and his AS getting nerfed, can we undo the nerf on his W? Or at least give W something to make it a decent choice to skill? Right now, it's an obvious last-ranked skill.