Morello, let's talk AP Ezreal

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skippymcgee

Senior Member

03-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Because it was interesting, it was just overpowered. Meaning that balance of a primary build trumps the ability to build different items.
Please proceed to nerf Zyra's support further then. She's too strong of a support to also be a highly-functioning mage.


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Galgus

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Senior Member

03-08-2013

Am I the only player who builds Mana Hybrid Ezreal?

Muramana, Arch Embrace, and Lich Bane together give him great burst damage and sustained damage near AD Ezreal at high mana, and he charges tears like a boss.

What is the traditional AP Ezreal build anyway?


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June24th

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Senior Member

03-08-2013

No please, don't buff Ezreal in any way.
He had his spotlight and it was like almost a whole year, I'm tired of seeing ezreal, and if you think he's weak as AP then don't play him AP because there are far more champions who can make thta role better.

No more Ezreal. Riot already made enough profit with his skin.


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rootsoflust

Senior Member

03-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arai Kitsune View Post
Adding an AD ratio to his ultimate is part of what got us into this mess in the first place. Along with Kog'Maw. And Corki. I'd rather they remove the AD ratio form his ultimate, in fact, and bring him back to where he was as more of a mage, but that's not likely to happen. So I'm going to say no to that.

Also, his Q does have an AP ratio, it's just small due to Lich bane. Bumping it up to 0.3 should be fine though according to Morello.
It is called balancing fool. I could make it work given the time and opportunity. Look at how pathetic MF's ap ratio is on impure shots..


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Morello

Lead Designer

03-08-2013
8 of 16 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gespens View Post
CDR AP Ezreal has his mystic shot a 1.5 second cooldown if he lands it, meaning every seconds he can basically chunk a person if he is good. AP Ez is more of a siege poe champ, rather than a sustained dps.
Bolded a couple parts. This seems like something we wouldn't want to support, honestly. It's likely why we didn't support AP Ezreal when there was original intent there.

Even if it's fun, it still doesn't mean it's desirable to have in the game.


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zlefin

Senior Member

03-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Let me talk high-level and then to your specific suggestions;

1) I tend to prefer off-builds that allow similar gameplay with different high- and low-points, or a different pattern altogether. An example of this is, while there's a power problem here, AP and AD Nidalee.

2) Support of off-builds should not sacrifice strong gameplay patterns of primary paths - for example, AP Tryndamere, before nerfs, subverted his entire gameplay pattern to abuse a mechanic. This is not worth supporting an off-build as the costs are higher than the benefits.

3) We have to primarily think of one thing to balance when tuning. It's more important that there's situations you build different items (such as Bloodthirster vs Infinity Edge vs Last Whisper) than you can build different scaling points.

Now, onto your post.

I think the Q and R changes are potentially pretty safe. I do think Ezreal is pretty balanced as an ADC right now. My only worry is the potential to remove satisfaction from AD Ezreal by lowering the damage of his two primary damage spells, but these numbers might be OK.

I don't think the Essence Flux change is a good change, but I think you're looking at a general Ezreal problem with a correct diagnosis; without the AS Slow, the skill is lacking in interesting or defining qualities. This, additionally, can hurt AP Ezreal, but overall is something I think is lame for Ezreal in general.

I'd like to see something that defines it, but my critiques here are: it does give an ADC access to a team-wide AS buff (both potentially OP, and potentially terrible based on who's on your team) and it doesn't actually do anything that I think helps AP Ezreal more than it helps Ezreal overall. That might be OK, if that's your goal here, but it's agnostic to AP/AD.

Overall, I don't have an issue with AP Ezreal, I just think you guys are putting more value on this than it actually provides. You still do the same things, except you do one less thing - auto-attack - and with the low CD of Mystic shot, is it even possible to make that spell feel good on both builds without being absurd on one? I'm not convinced that it is. I think this is more something that's more based in the idea that it makes you feel special (and that's valid in a vacuum) but it doesn't actually do anything real, gameplay-wise. AP Kog'Maw, for example, I think does offer a new pattern because you overly-focus on different skills, but there's still gameplay. Even in that situation it's hard to balance. I guess I understand there's a desire to have AP Ezreal from a core group of die-hard AP Ez fans, I just don't understand why he's the champion people focus on when there's no new gameplay to find within AP Ezreal.

I do feel, though, Essence Flux needs some mechanical help to define and differentiate it from Q and other damage spells generally. I'd like to see some work go into that.
Of course it's possible to make to make the spell feel good on both ad and ap builds without being absurd on one; the question is whether the method of doing so is sufficiently satisfying or overfavors hybridization. If you build a full list of constraints it must satisfy I could readily enough generate a solution. Maybe giving AP ezrael some new gameplay would satisfy them. It's pretty common for champs with possible AP and AD builds for people to want both of them to be useable.

And I disagree on the ap tryn excess nerf; I think it was nice having an alternate build plan be viable.


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Morello

Lead Designer

03-08-2013
9 of 16 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quintessence View Post
But why did it have to be basically completely removed... Could have been adjusted instead :/
I'm not sure, actually. Statikk may have insight into what the goal was there.


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9Heart

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Senior Member

03-08-2013

I honestly think it's impossible to change their mind because they are speaking on that they think they are right and you are wrong and are most likely not going to change their stance no matter what logical evidence you show to them. At the same time however I do agree with Riot's stance on this topic, because the one thing that people do not understand is that the way champions are played change from what they were meant to be originally. The reason why these champions change, is because how they are played now are much better. For example, Mordekaiser, Akali, Nidalee, and of course Ezreal. Morde was meant to be a AD, but now he's ap because he's much better. Same thing with Akali and Ezreal. These champions were meant to be hybrid but now are full ap casters and an ad carry. Nidalee is different because she was meant to be ad but now she is played both as ad and ap but for a while she was strictly ap. The point is that these champions are played differently because the way they are played now are way better then the original, and when have you ever seen riot make changes reverting how champions are played now to their original counterpart? They have never made any changes to Mordekaiser, making him more relevant as AD or change akali to make her better as a hybrid than full ap. AD Ezreal is just better than AP or hybrid Ezreal, and he's no exception to change.


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xkawazux

Senior Member

03-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Well if your move is "because it's magic-based, we should not adhere to the mechanical fidelity of Ezreal as exists, a character who already has gameplay and is finally well-balanced," then I think I don't have to make a move :P

Maybe there's a thematic expectation, and that's a conceptual problem, but almost 2 years later, I'm not looking to fix that when the gameplay we have is working.
Why not just increase the AP ratio on his Q to make up for itemization changes and increase the AP ratio on his ult to make up for the damage fall off change?

It would barely change AD Ezreal besides making TF a slightly better option.


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zlefin

Senior Member

03-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Because it was interesting, it was just overpowered. Meaning that balance of a primary build trumps the ability to build different items.
It should necessarily be possible to balance both the AP kog and AD kog builds. I don't see how it's inherently overpowered rather than just a matter of numbers tweaking.

Also, you need to fix the tooltip on Kog's R; I reported in bugs but it ain't been fixed; the issue where the 125% champ multiplier only applies to base damage and not bonus damage from ap or ad.