Morello, let's talk AP Ezreal

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Knote

Senior Member

03-08-2013

These arguments are an absolute joke IMO. Really? So you won't even bother giving ap ezreal even a little bit of love because "he doesn't do anything unique?" wth kind of argument is that?

What does Brand do any different from anyone? He has a skillshot stun, and some aoe's, let's just delete him he's a waste of space right?

Maybe we should delete any champion who's not getting tournament play, obviously that's all that matters right?

Have you even played AP ezreal? He's much different than AD ezreal.


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Economicz

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Senior Member

03-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Let me talk high-level and then to your specific suggestions;


Overall, I don't have an issue with AP Ezreal, I just think you guys are putting more value on this than it actually provides. You still do the same things, except you do one less thing - auto-attack - and with the low CD of Mystic shot, is it even possible to make that spell feel good on both builds without being absurd on one? I'm not convinced that it is. I think this is more something that's more based in the idea that it makes you feel special (and that's valid in a vacuum) but it doesn't actually do anything real, gameplay-wise. AP Kog'Maw, for example, I think does offer a new pattern because you overly-focus on different skills, but there's still gameplay. Even in that situation it's hard to balance. I guess I understand there's a desire to have AP Ezreal from a core group of die-hard AP Ez fans, I just don't understand why he's the champion people focus on when there's no new gameplay to find within AP Ezreal.

I do feel, though, Essence Flux needs some mechanical help to define and differentiate it from Q and other damage spells generally. I'd like to see some work go into that.
There is a big difference between the two. If ad ezreal misses his skills, he still has his strong auto attacks. Ap ezreal is like lux in that he can entirely miss his burst and deal 0 damage.
Ezreal also feels like a mage in his game play. He has the ap scaling of a mage and the base stats (we all know .625 attack speed is the most common base stat for a mage).


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Knote

Senior Member

03-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Economicz View Post
There is a big difference between the two. If ad ezreal misses his skills, he still has his strong auto attacks. Ap ezreal is like lux in that he can entirely miss his burst and deal 0 damage.
Ezreal also feels like a mage in his game play. He has the ap scaling of a mage and the base stats (we all know .625 attack speed is the most common base stat for a mage).
He's also essentially the hyper carry of AP carries.


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Pigrat

Senior Member

03-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Let me talk high-level and then to your specific suggestions;

1) I tend to prefer off-builds that allow similar gameplay with different high- and low-points, or a different pattern altogether. An example of this is, while there's a power problem here, AP and AD Nidalee.

2) Support of off-builds should not sacrifice strong gameplay patterns of primary paths - for example, AP Tryndamere, before nerfs, subverted his entire gameplay pattern to abuse a mechanic. This is not worth supporting an off-build as the costs are higher than the benefits.

3) We have to primarily think of one thing to balance when tuning. It's more important that there's situations you build different items (such as Bloodthirster vs Infinity Edge vs Last Whisper) than you can build different scaling points.

Now, onto your post.

I think the Q and R changes are potentially pretty safe. I do think Ezreal is pretty balanced as an ADC right now. My only worry is the potential to remove satisfaction from AD Ezreal by lowering the damage of his two primary damage spells, but these numbers might be OK.

I don't think the Essence Flux change is a good change, but I think you're looking at a general Ezreal problem with a correct diagnosis; without the AS Slow, the skill is lacking in interesting or defining qualities. This, additionally, can hurt AP Ezreal, but overall is something I think is lame for Ezreal in general.

I'd like to see something that defines it, but my critiques here are: it does give an ADC access to a team-wide AS buff (both potentially OP, and potentially terrible based on who's on your team) and it doesn't actually do anything that I think helps AP Ezreal more than it helps Ezreal overall. That might be OK, if that's your goal here, but it's agnostic to AP/AD.

Overall, I don't have an issue with AP Ezreal, I just think you guys are putting more value on this than it actually provides. You still do the same things, except you do one less thing - auto-attack - and with the low CD of Mystic shot, is it even possible to make that spell feel good on both builds without being absurd on one? I'm not convinced that it is. I think this is more something that's more based in the idea that it makes you feel special (and that's valid in a vacuum) but it doesn't actually do anything real, gameplay-wise. AP Kog'Maw, for example, I think does offer a new pattern because you overly-focus on different skills, but there's still gameplay. Even in that situation it's hard to balance. I guess I understand there's a desire to have AP Ezreal from a core group of die-hard AP Ez fans, I just don't understand why he's the champion people focus on when there's no new gameplay to find within AP Ezreal.

I do feel, though, Essence Flux needs some mechanical help to define and differentiate it from Q and other damage spells generally. I'd like to see some work go into that.


Any comment on AP irelia? I remember having a blast playing her when her E ratio was 1, but when it pretty much destroyed it.


I realize that having that high of an AP ratio might have made "supplementary ap" increase her power level too much on non-ap based irelias, but is there any chance of increasing the viability of AP irelia again?


Pure CDR and AP was incredibly fun on her.


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Arai Kitsune

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Senior Member

03-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knote View Post
He's also essentially the hyper carry of AP carries.
This too, is a big draw. We play Ezreal for the skillshots and the flash. We play AP Ezreal so that our skillshots matter and so that if we play well, we are very well rewarded with a very, very heavy scaling all skillshot champion. We like to take the spotlight away from the ADC, doing similar damage, but doing it with style and skill. In a game filled with low risk, high reward, he's a high risk, very high reward.


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Anduraga

Senior Member

03-08-2013

Sounds like you just need to gut Ezrael's W and replace it with something else entirely.


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skippymcgee

Senior Member

03-08-2013

...When are people going to learn not to ask Morello on this? He's the one who likened AP Ezreal to AD Annie. >.>

AP Ezreal offers a similar (but different) feel to Kassadin, imo, because of the ability to reposition around the battlefield at a relatively quick pace. The difference being that Kassadin doesn't have as many abilities that can be as easily cast, giving a little less significance to something such as lich bane on Kassadin. On top of that, the lack of cc effects in AP Ezreal lets him behave less like the general "mage" and closer to the "APC" that Katarina and others are (don't try to tell me she's an assassin, she does massive team-wide damage).

There are people in the population that purchased Ezreal, even PFE just to play as AP Ezreal. And if more nerfs hit AP, I'm quite honestly going to be working on petitions to have both of these refunded. He won't be the character I know and love.


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Sinbu

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Senior Member

03-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by skippymcgee View Post
...When are people going to learn not to ask Morello on this? He's the one who likened AP Ezreal to AD Annie. >.>
And that's why he got demoted. Maybe you'll see more interesting champions (like Thresh)


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Gespens

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Senior Member

03-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Because you do less, not different things. The dash damage is valid, but that just makes me want to make it do better damage overall instead of just make that something one build thinks about. It'd make the skill overall better.
CDR AP Ezreal has his mystic shot a 1.5 second cooldown if he lands it, meaning every seconds he can basically chunk a person if he is good. AP Ez is more of a siege poe champ, rather than a sustained dps.

In addition, there are ways to make him an AA champ, with AP thanks two the ne Malady, and Nashor's Tooth, combined with Spellsword mastery. I mean, with Morellonomicn, Zhonya, Nashors, Lichbane, plus runes/masteries, you having 600 AP is not too farfetched.

15% of your ap would be 90 damage, and if I have my math right, you have 150% AS on Ezreal with full passive stacks. Over 3 seconds he deals 421 damage from auto attacks in magic, which is minor, but you are wording it in a way that seems to say 'AP EZreal does not auto'


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Gespens

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Senior Member

03-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knote View Post
These arguments are an absolute joke IMO. Really? So you won't even bother giving ap ezreal even a little bit of love because "he doesn't do anything unique?" wth kind of argument is that?

What does Brand do any different from anyone? He has a skillshot stun, and some aoe's, let's just delete him he's a waste of space right?

Maybe we should delete any champion who's not getting tournament play, obviously that's all that matters right?

Have you even played AP ezreal? He's much different than AD ezreal.
Low CD burst damage in team fights.