Morello, let's talk AP Ezreal

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FallenBlade

Senior Member

03-08-2013

Morello, what do you think of my idea for Ezreal's ult? (from my thread http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...6#post35240306)

Give Ezreal’s Ultimate AP ratios on its damage falloff. The description for his ult would now look something like this.

Quote:
Ezreal charges for 1 second to fire a powerful broad energy missile that will travel in a line by the whole map and will deal magic damage to each enemy unit they pass through. It will deal 10%(-1% per 200 AP) less damage for each subsequent target hit, down to a minimum of 30% (+1% per 40 AP) damage dealt.
Of course the numbers are just made up, but I hope you get my idea and maybe even try it out on the PBE


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Fomorian27

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Senior Member

03-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I don't think the Essence Flux change is a good change, but I think you're looking at a general Ezreal problem with a correct diagnosis; without the AS Slow, the skill is lacking in interesting or defining qualities. This, additionally, can hurt AP Ezreal, but overall is something I think is lame for Ezreal in general.

How about something as simple as letting his essense flux hit minions, with damage falloff for more targets hit, just like his ult? It solves a number of problems: It would give ap ez reliable waveclear, it would make the ability interesting now that the AS debuff/ heal to allies has been removed, and the damage falloff would keep the ability from being overpowered on ad ezreal. It's such a simple and (IMO) elegant change, since it causes essence flux to work like a mini ez ult, and reduces burden of knowledge a little bit (when i first played ezreal I was confused why w didn't do any damage to minions when it looked like it was made of the same energy as the ult.) Please let me know your thoughts, because I would love to know why this can and can't work.

BTW I wanna say that I'm by no means a diehard ap ezreal fan, but I played him on aram, really liked his gameplay, and when I tried it on SR i got crapped on because of the need to waveclear. I really think there is some value in the difference in the gameplay between ap and ad ezreal. It's not as big as ap/ad kog, but it's there.


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Morello

Lead Designer

03-08-2013
3 of 16 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFinalAeon View Post
I just want Trueshot Barrage to have actual AP Scaling again. Considering all of Ezreal's stuff is magic-based, he should have decent AP Scaling on AT LEAST his ult. At least make the scaling on par with the AD Scaling (which I think was a mistake to add to begin with, as it was basically AP Ez's main reason for living).

Your move, Morello.
Well if your move is "because it's magic-based, we should not adhere to the mechanical fidelity of Ezreal as exists, a character who already has gameplay and is finally well-balanced," then I think I don't have to make a move :P

Maybe there's a thematic expectation, and that's a conceptual problem, but almost 2 years later, I'm not looking to fix that when the gameplay we have is working.


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ThornAlavarn

Senior Member

03-08-2013

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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Let me talk high-level and then to your specific suggestions;

1) I tend to prefer off-builds that allow similar gameplay with different high- and low-points, or a different pattern altogether. An example of this is, while there's a power problem here, AP and AD Nidalee.

2) Support of off-builds should not sacrifice strong gameplay patterns of primary paths - for example, AP Tryndamere, before nerfs, subverted his entire gameplay pattern to abuse a mechanic. This is not worth supporting an off-build as the costs are higher than the benefits.

3) We have to primarily think of one thing to balance when tuning. It's more important that there's situations you build different items (such as Bloodthirster vs Infinity Edge vs Last Whisper) than you can build different scaling points.

Now, onto your post.

I think the Q and R changes are potentially pretty safe. I do think Ezreal is pretty balanced as an ADC right now. My only worry is the potential to remove satisfaction from AD Ezreal by lowering the damage of his two primary damage spells, but these numbers might be OK.

I don't think the Essence Flux change is a good change, but I think you're looking at a general Ezreal problem with a correct diagnosis; without the AS Slow, the skill is lacking in interesting or defining qualities. This, additionally, can hurt AP Ezreal, but overall is something I think is lame for Ezreal in general.

I'd like to see something that defines it, but my critiques here are: it does give an ADC access to a team-wide AS buff (both potentially OP, and potentially terrible based on who's on your team) and it doesn't actually do anything that I think helps AP Ezreal more than it helps Ezreal overall. That might be OK, but if your goal here, but it's agnostic to AP/AD.

Overall, I don't have an issue with AP Ezreal, I just think you guys are putting more value on this than it actually provides. You still do the same things, except you do one less thing - auto-attack - and with the low CD of Mystic shot, is it even possible to make that spell feel good on both builds without being absurd on one? I'm not convinced that it is. I think this is more something that's more based in the idea that it makes you feel special (and that's valid in a vacuum) but it doesn't actually do anything real, gameplay-wise. AP Kog'Maw, for example, I think does ofer a new pattern because you overly-focus on different skills, but there's still gameplay. Even in that situation it's hard to balance. I guess I understand there's a desire to have AP Ezreal from a core group of die-hard AP Ez fans, I just don't understand why he's the champion people focus on when there's no new gameplay to find within AP Ezreal.

I do feel, though, Essence Flux needs some mechanical help to define and differentiate it from Q and other damage spells generally. I'd like to see some work go into that.
Eh.. What do you mean by no new gameplay? I find AP Ezreal to play much differently than AD Ezreal. Obviously I'm using the same abilities, but AD Ezreal now doesn't really have any use for his W now, other than building stacks/giving an AS buff to his allies, while for AP Ezreal that's his primary ability. The way I handle teamfights, and laning is different, I actually use my E as an offensive ability rather than just a dash, etc.


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Steven Mcburn

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Senior Member

03-08-2013

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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Mostly that I think that's just a wave-clear component overall. I guess if it had terrible bases and high ratios it would be AP Ez only, but I think I don't want to give Ezreal more farming ability since his Q and R is so helpful for getting CS. At that point, he lanes like Morgana, which I don't think any of us can speak to being an interesting and dynamic lane opponent.
This is completely unrelated to anything said so far;


But don't you think Dfg+Gunblade Ez is by far burstier than people are giving him credit for? I mean, really.


Toss in a lichbane and a deathcap and you're rolling in high end spam magic dmg.


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Morello

Lead Designer

03-08-2013
4 of 16 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenBlade View Post
Morello, what do you think of my idea for Ezreal's ult? (from my thread http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...6#post35240306)

Give Ezrealís Ultimate AP ratios on its damage falloff. The description for his ult would now look something like this.


Of course the numbers are just made up, but I hope you get my idea and maybe even try it out on the PBE
I mean I think it makes AP Ezreal viable, but that's a really clunky way to make it scale there - it gets better, but worse, with AP? That's sending players a really mixed messages.


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Morello

Lead Designer

03-08-2013
5 of 16 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Mcburn View Post
This is completely unrelated to anything said so far;


But don't you think Dfg+Gunblade Ez is by far burstier than people are giving him credit for? I mean, really.


Toss in a lichbane and a deathcap and you're rolling in high end spam magic dmg.
Oh sure - it's pretty bursty, there's just no reason to do that on Ezreal over a character who has more in their favor for this, like Diana or Akali.


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FallenBlade

Senior Member

03-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I mean I think it makes AP Ezreal viable, but that's a really clunky way to make it scale there - it gets better, but worse, with AP? That's sending players a really mixed messages.
I think I might have messed up with the communication there. Here is what I meant

Ezreal charges for 1 second to fire a powerful broad energy missile that will travel in a line by the whole map and will deal magic damage to each enemy unit they pass through. It will deal 10%(-1% per 200 AP) less damage for each subsequent target hit, down to a minimum of 30% (+1% per 40 AP) damage dealt. (same thing)

At 200 AP, This would make his ult look like this

Ezreal charges for 1 second to fire a powerful broad energy missile that will travel in a line by the whole map and will deal magic damage to each enemy unit they pass through. It will deal 9% less damage for each subsequent target hit, down to a minimum of 35%

Do you get what I mean?


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The Fizznity

Senior Member

03-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I just don't understand why he's the champion people focus on when there's no new gameplay to find within AP Ezreal.
Because A: he was originally designed partially as a mage, B: we don't get multibuild champions realistically anymore even though they are really cool, C: it's really fun, and D: he only needs minor tweaks to be made truly viable. (By truly viable, I mean doesn't require a ton of special practice and skill to make work OK; not "viable" in the sense that if you beat your head against it enough you can make it work in the "average elos")


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Morello

Lead Designer

03-08-2013
6 of 16 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThornAlavarn View Post
Eh.. What do you mean by no new gameplay? I find AP Ezreal to play much differently than AD Ezreal. Obviously I'm using the same abilities, but AD Ezreal now doesn't really have any use for his W now, other than building stacks/giving an AS buff to his allies, while for AP Ezreal that's his primary ability. The way I handle teamfights, and laning is different, I actually use my E as an offensive ability rather than just a dash, etc.
Because you do less, not different things. The dash damage is valid, but that just makes me want to make it do better damage overall instead of just make that something one build thinks about. It'd make the skill overall better.