So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
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Fareley

Senior Member

03-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Severian NA View Post
I get the feeling they weren't expecting such a strong reaction to the changes. Like they don't really get what the fuss is about. They put a lot of work into this, and we are everything but happy. Or many of us. That can't be any fun, and that might explain the feeling that they are being too defensive or something. *sigh* I don't want this to be about evil Riot and the poor Karma players. It isn't. But the way they respond makes me feel like we are being silly, that our reaction is unfounded, that we are overreacting. Or something along those lines. And I feel that they either didn't understand what we valued, or that they knew it all too well and decided the best way to deal with it is borderline ignoring it. That is how I feel. I am not saying that is how it is. I am not unreasonable. If they were suprised by this reaction, and would have done it differently if they had known how we felt, I won't rage. Mistakes are made, learning is good. If they knew how we felt, but decided this is how they wanted it to be regardless, I can take that. I am not the center of the universe, and Riot is not the devil. It is not like they are trying to make us feel bad. I'm sure this will be taken all kinds of wrong. I just feel this way, because the response has been so vague I don't know what to think. If I am being a total idiot about this, or something, I won't know unless someone notifies me. I just don't know. Am I doing something wrong? Am I being ridicilous? It seems like I'm not the only one who feels some of this, at least. I'm not trying to be difficult, I am trying very hard to be reasonable. Reason seems to have abandoned me at the moment though :P I better go to bed. *waves*
well, people expected a Karma remake for 2 years. Remake as in a small switcheroo of some of her abilities to make her viable and fun to play. Now we get:
- a completely different theme
- new sexy model
- new weapons

So yeah, the new champion sure is cool, it just is not Karma anymore.


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RiceyBoy

Member

03-07-2013

Vegeta's final flash anyone?


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FiM DitzyDoo

Member

03-07-2013

Yesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesye syesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesy esyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyes yesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesye syesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesy esyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyes yesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesye syesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesy esyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyes yesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesye syesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesy esyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyes yesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesye syesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesy esyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyes yesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesye syesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesy esyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyes yesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesye syesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesy esyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyes yesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesye syesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesy esyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyes


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HarryOrunitia

Senior Member

03-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fareley View Post
the main problem seems to be the rework process. Karma lacked combat impact, so the design team went and tried to make her abilities feel more impactful. But during those iterations the theme of Karma got lost and then finally replaced by a new theme to justify the new abilities (at least that's what I was able to gather from the various remake updates over the past year(s)).
Karma was always about balance, so the right thing to do would have been to go with her theme and think about new/more impactful abilities around that theme.

I'll give you a couple examples as constructive criticism on how I hoped a rework would look like:

Her passive was supposed to be "the more damage you inflict on her, the more she retaliates". What goes around comes around. The ability power boost however never felt like a good passive, as it would be often times hardly noticed at all (plus kinda bad AP ratios made it worth even less). Here are a couple of examples what could have been a remade passive:
- classic thornmail. Damage Karma, get damaged back. Feels powerful (early on, for later you can give it a small AP ratio like Annies molten shield or make it % based to give it a unique flair (such as 20% of all non-true damage returned as magic damage)) and simple.
- damage to healing conversion, for example 20% of damage dealt to Karma healed on nearby allies over the next 3 seconds.
- current Mantra function as passive. Every 20 seconds her abilities passively swap from damaging to healing/helping abilities and vice-versa

examples for normal abilites:
positive effects for allies:
- gives a shield. [maybe cast again for exploding shield for damage]. When the shield breaks on its own, surrounding enemies take extra damage (punishing enemies for damaging shielded ally).
- heals ally. The idea of increased healing based on missing hp was not bad for the theme, but really lacked impact when supporting squishy AD carry (plus was mana-intensive, wasted half the ability (damage) and needed a Mantra. And it was AoE, so it had to be extra bad to not be OP in teamfights). Maybe switch to: heals ally. Heals more based on the difference of current target %hp and Karmas current %hp
- copies movement speed bonus of nearby enemies onto an allied target (only bonus movement speed is applied, base movement speed and thus total movement speed can still be different)
- speed up karma and an ally based on distance to each other. Both get max speed buff when they are in half range of the abilitys range to each other. The closer they are to standing in each other or to max range of the ability the less movement speed they get.
- lose movement speed or hp to increase surrounding allies movement speed or hp
- AoE or single target movement speed increase - the closer an ally is to Karma, the more movement speed he gets

harmful effects on enemies:
- shield idea, see first ability on friendly effects.
- Stun/snare/slow enemy. Increase duration/power based on enemy CC currently active nearby
- damage based on offensive potential of the enemy (as in enemy AD ratio, and maybe a very low AP ratio (like Veigars ult, but not quite as strong))
- damage based on hp - Karmas hp, enemy current %hp
- damage based on how much the target is moving for X seconds. More moving - more damage.
- next ability of enemy damages himself as well, skillshots always hit (with 0 travelling distance for Nidalees spears)

ultimate can remain as Mantra (but not to empower, rather to switch skillset) or any ability, just stronger (like AoE Stun/snare/slow with increased duration/power based on enemy CC, and something from the healing/helping side) if mantra is remade to passive.

Took me around one hour to make up all those abilities, and every single one of them fits the Karma theme and I bet you could make a great Karma remake even with only a quarter of them. But don't kill the Karma theme please <3

As for the fans of Karma (huehue nice pun):
I don't mind if she does not use fans, those were probably just influenced by the geisha-type modell. For all I care, a libra as a weapon would have been most fitting.

They never listened to Karma players, what makes you think they're going to listen to you now?

All the skin ideas, the rework ideas, the suggestions, the threads, months and months of hardcore Karma players, beginners, even people who never played her, we all had lots of input. Input and opinions about everything, really, from the design to the concept to the gameplay. The only Rioter I remember kind of listening to fan suggestions was Shurelya, but after she left, Karma was put in a limbo, with Guinsoo supposedly working on her. That was more than a year ago.

During all that time, they could've listened to the players, they could've read the threads on the forum, the comments on twitter, reddit, even facebook, but no. Maybe they would've seen that no one ever really complained too much about her design, definitely not about her weapon of choice. The issues were mostly with her gameplay, her ineffectiveness as a support to ranged champions, the ambiguity of her role, but I've never heard anyone complain about her voice or her personality. Yes, maybe her walk animation or her monochrome theme were a turn-off for some people, but isn't that why we have 110 champions? You can't like them all.

She didn't seem "ready" for combat? Well, does Sona seem like the fighting type? She's just chilling floating around and playing her instrument most of the time, so what's wrong with Karma and her fans exactly? Her calm, collected way of showing superiority in the battlefield. She could've been the embodiement of SO MANY design themes that are actually missing in LoL at the moment. She was the strong, classy politician, but she also had a convincing Asian/zen thing going on, and the "feel" that she was a woman from other times. Almost none of those elements seem to be left in her now, she's just a mix of many themes that we can already find in other champions, Irelia, Akali, Syndra, LeBlanc, Soraka, etc.

As many people, me included, suggested over the months of silence, there were many opportunities Riot just wasted. Victorian themed skins? Carnival themed skins? Even a "horror" skin. Or something elegant, maybe steam-punkish? (It's also what many people have been asking for Orianna for months now, but Riot just seems to hate the idea). A Ionia inspired skin? (which I guess would've looked like her new base look. I just don't see why it had to replace the original).

I've always felt Karma had incredible potential to appeal to MANY different types of players in the game, but Riot just wasted all the opportunities and refused to listen to players. Which is pretty strange considering they take pride in being a company that listens to its fans. I just didn't see that in how they handled the Karma thing.


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Annapii

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Senior Member

03-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryOrunitia View Post
They never listened to Karma players, what makes you think they're going to listen to you now?

All the skin ideas, the rework ideas, the suggestions, the threads, months and months of hardcore Karma players, beginners, even people who never played her, we all had lots of input. Input and opinions about everything, really, from the design to the concept to the gameplay. The only Rioter I remember kind of listening to fan suggestions was Shurelya, but after she left, Karma was put in a limbo, with Guinsoo supposedly working on her. That was more than a year ago.

During all that time, they could've listened to the players, they could've read the threads on the forum, the comments on twitter, reddit, even facebook, but no. Maybe they would've seen that no one ever really complained too much about her design, definitely not about her weapon of choice. The issues were mostly with her gameplay, her ineffectiveness as a support to ranged champions, the ambiguity of her role, but I've never heard anyone complain about her voice or her personality. Yes, maybe her walk animation or her monochrome theme were a turn-off for some people, but isn't that why we have 110 champions? You can't like them all.

She didn't seem "ready" for combat? Well, does Sona seem like the fighting type? She's just chilling floating around and playing her instrument most of the time, so what's wrong with Karma and her fans exactly? Her calm, collected way of showing superiority in the battlefield. She could've been the embodiement of SO MANY design themes that are actually missing in LoL at the moment. She was the strong, classy politician, but she also had a convincing Asian/zen thing going on, and the "feel" that she was a woman from other times. Almost none of those elements seem to be left in her now, she's just a mix of many themes that we can already find in other champions, Irelia, Akali, Syndra, LeBlanc, Soraka, etc.

As many people, me included, suggested over the months of silence, there were many opportunities Riot just wasted. Victorian themed skins? Carnival themed skins? Even a "horror" skin. Or something elegant, maybe steam-punkish? (It's also what many people have been asking for Orianna for months now, but Riot just seems to hate the idea). A Ionia inspired skin? (which I guess would've looked like her new base look. I just don't see why it had to replace the original).

I've always felt Karma had incredible potential to appeal to MANY different types of players in the game, but Riot just wasted all the opportunities and refused to listen to players. Which is pretty strange considering they take pride in being a company that listens to its fans. I just didn't see that in how they handled the Karma thing.
I would say something. But I'm lazy and I found someone that's eloquent so I'll do this instead.


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V0d00K1ng

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Recruiter

03-07-2013

So...does that mean we will get a new champion judgement passage to look forward to? Or did you guys completely drop those?


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HarryOrunitia

Senior Member

03-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamtigers View Post
I probably should have elaborated more.

I liked her fans and they were a big part of who karma was. It doesn't make me happy that they removed them, but compared to and.alongside all the other changes, it doesn't upset me. Basically, I'm pretty neutral about that particular change.
I only thought to mention them at all because of the number of people devastated by the lack of her fans because I was so caught up in horror over all the other design changes.

I really, really wish the purple one was a new skin, even if this means I get both for free. Because as someone who loves to create original characters and roleplay it shocks me to see such a startlingly different concept be passed off a an "Evolution" as opposed to a restart. If this were a new champion or an alternate skin I would adore it. Instead all I see is the dismantling and disposal of a unique, strong, and elegant character in favor of something the market is used to seeing as successful and appealing to the masses.

...I still can't get over how much I love her clothes on the "traditional skin". Put her fans back in her hands and remove the floating chunks of metal and it would be perfect. It would go right up there next to Leona in my favorite default skins.
I agree with you 100% then. I really couldn't have said it better myself.


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Severian NA

Senior Member

03-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fareley View Post
well, people expected a Karma remake for 2 years. Remake as in a small switcheroo of some of her abilities to make her viable and fun to play. Now we get:
- a completely different theme
- new sexy model
- new weapons

So yeah, the new champion sure is cool, it just is not Karma anymore.
It is the worst case scenario. I've been worried and excited about this for a very long time. Info has been very scarce, and now I regret holding back and trusting them to do their thing. Not because I feel they are incompetent or anything like that. Just because it seems that there was a lack of understanding about what made Karma, Karma. If that could have changed this outcome, or even just her classic skin... But I don't blame anyone for anything. That won't bring her back, and I refuse to be the kind of person that thinks everything is a personal attack :P But who knows. Maybe they will give us her old character as a skin (all of it) and maybe the kit rework will turn out to be the opposite of her visual rework. Maybe I get to keep her. I really want this to end up with me begging forgiveness for ever doubting Riot. I might be entering the realm of desperate hope though XD


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Aubalt

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Junior Member

03-07-2013

As someone that's been waiting for the Karma rework since forever, I've gotta say that I didn't expect Karma to go through such a dramatic change. I sort of thought that her current black and white dress was going to be updated and be left at that. Don't get me wrong though, I think Karma's new look is positively gorgeous!

I just don't really want it to be her new default. It just doesn't... feel right. It shows much more skin than I'm used to Karma showing.

I'd rather have the "Traditional" skin be her new default look and her purple garb with the twin jade dragons be a new skin.


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Kanaviilokki

Junior Member

03-07-2013

You know, Karma used to stand out in a good way among all the other champions. She looked like a respectable old woman among the gutter of all the general eyecandy for dues in the League. Why did she have to be degraded to be a part of the gutter? This is not a good change, not at all. Seriously, what is so hard in keeping to the spirit of the character when they were loved by a part of the community for the reason she stood out and keep her that way instead of degrading her to the common level of stuff you do? Everything she would have actually needed was a skill remake and a visual upgrade, not to made to an another **** 'n ass ""respectable"" and ""empowered"" woman. If you felt like making a skin of her old looks would be necessary, why make a complete rework at all?

Sometimes I really wish you poured some ice cold water on your design team and sent them back to school, this is the absolute opposite of good character development. You took something unique in your game out "in teh name of development".