BORK? Why not bring back Thornmail?

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hashinshin

Senior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcus Veles View Post
Hybrid tank/damage items sound dangerously like bruiser items to me. A lot of Jarvan/Vi/Xin/etc. with Sunfire, Locket, Maw, etc. already doing decent damage while being a pain in the ass to peel and kill. We don't need more of that.
Yes you DO need more of that. That's being a god damn melee champion. I don't know why tanky damage has even become a term, that just means "I'm melee!"

I swear to someone Spirit Breaker and Chaos Knight would just make your mind implode.

You are ranged, I am tanky and melee.

Ranged > melee
Ranged = tanky + melee.
(Ranged also = massive damage + mobile + melee.)

That's how these games work, that's how they'll always work.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

03-05-2013
9 of 28 Riot Posts

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which is why I hate counters. People should be able to play whatever they want to play and counters should only be forced in heavy abuse situations (such as a tactical marine blob) and should not be used because eventually people are just going to naturally get enough armor or HP to make your item worthwhile in the end.

Which is the crux of the issue. Udyr with masteries and a spirit visage (200 HP) gets 2900 HP at level 18. That is not HP stacking. Yet BotRK becomes ideal against him, and so does LW because of his passive. So Udyr just being udyr gets hard countered by itemization and has no end game. What does Udyr do in response to that?
I actually completely agree with you on this point. I've repeatedly stated that there are two goals here:

1. To make sure a cycle of counter-itemization exists.

2. Ensure that the counter-items are not super-hard counters - AKA none of this "I buy this and I auto-win unless you counter my counter."

Essentially you need #1 because then everyone will build the best option that has no counter just due to basic human risk-aversion. Why build something that can potentially be countered?

You need option #2 because you need to give people the chance to win if they don't then counter-counter build - so that there's strategic depth and tradeoff. What if, I, instead choose to ignore the fact that you are BoRK and just maximize my own damage? Or split push? Or concentrate on killing everyone else on your team first? etc.

My goal, that I completely overshot, was to first ensure #1 exists and then #2 - completely reduce the impact of the entire chain until you can strategically choose to ignore the counter cycle.


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dogbiter

Senior Member

03-05-2013

xyph i dont think i have to tell you this, but have in consideration that if you ever buff thornmail you would hardcounter melee carries more than BotRK or anything else.

to be fair, that item is pretty OP already from the melee carry perspective, its actually pretty good people dont buy it often.

1 of those on any champion with similar gold and that means you cant beat him down if isolated and pretty much screws up their dueling potential.


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hashinshin

Senior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
I actually completely agree with you on this point. I've repeatedly stated that there are two goals here:

1. To make sure a cycle of counter-itemization exists.

2. Ensure that the counter-items are not super-hard counters - AKA none of this "I buy this and I auto-win unless you counter my counter."

Essentially you need #1 because then everyone will build the best option that has no counter just due to basic human risk-aversion. Why build something that can potentially be countered?

You need option #2 because you need to give people the chance to win if they don't then counter-counter build - so that there's strategic depth and tradeoff. What if, I, instead choose to ignore the fact that you are BoRK and just maximize my own damage? Or split push? Or concentrate on killing everyone else on your team first? etc.

My goal, that I completely overshot, was to first ensure #1 exists and then #2 - completely reduce the impact of the entire chain until you can strategically choose to ignore the counter cycle.
The issue then with this cycle is you started it at damages and defense. Instead of hitting gameplay you're hitting the numbers that gameplay generates. For example, a hard counter to a ranged army in WH40k is not a unit immune to ranged damage (though god knows they've probably created one of those already) but rather a unit that can move and charge 24+ inches.

Defense versus countering defense is effectively range versus melee. Instead of LW there should be a ranged AD item that focuses on getting you out of tough ****. Instead of BotRK there should be an item that gives ... well I don't really know what in DotA you guys deem acceptable but I'm sure there's something.

Since Udyr is just naturally tanky he cries manly tears since there's actually nothing he can do to stop himself from getting to the 100 armor point where LW becomes amazing. He reaches actually ~110 armor by having his passive + armor runes + level 18. His EXISTENCE is countered right now.

The Counter to Udyr should be frozen mallet, not LW. And his counter to FH should be boots of swiftness, which would in turn make him squishier and more open to regular gameplay.

Also Xpyh I'mma be honest, you can probably just add me in game or shoot me an email rather than using the forums as a PM machine. If you don't want to that's fine, but you know, throwing that out there.


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Caítlyn

Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by hashinshin View Post
Also Xpyh I'mma be honest, you can probably just add me in game or shoot me an email rather than using the forums as a PM machine. If you don't want to that's fine, but you know, throwing that out there.
Youre embarassing yourself and should stop posting.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

03-05-2013
10 of 28 Riot Posts

Quote:
The issue then with this cycle is you started it at damages and defense. Instead of hitting gameplay you're hitting the numbers that gameplay generates. For example, a hard counter to a ranged army in WH40k is not a unit immune to ranged damage (though god knows they've probably created one of those already) but rather a unit that can move and charge 24+ inches.
The cycle of damage and defense is one that that is intrinsic whenever you have multiple damage or defense items, I believe - though admittedly I could be a bit off on that.

I suppose there could be a world in which there was no damage or defense options and only utility side-grade passives - that's one that could probably work overall - though I'm not sure whether items should exist in that world at all.

I'm actually going to argue that LW and Void Staff are not actually counter-items right now but that seems to be a personal and pretty unpopular sentiment.

Quote:
Also Xpyh I'mma be honest, you can probably just add me in game or shoot me an email rather than using the forums as a PM machine. If you don't want to that's fine, but you know, throwing that out there.
Maybe in a couple of months - while I can actually talk somewhat reasonably on the forums, in more err.. "casual" conversation, let's say - I'm mostly just a bundle of fury a lot of time.


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hashinshin

Senior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catlyn View Post
Youre an embarassment and should stop posting.
I was wrong about one thing, and not even a big thing since Irelia effectively wasn't released to me until Renekton had already been terroring me for weeks. Irelia's first nerf patch was 3 months after Renekton release, and she never really got that big in NA anyway before Riot slapped her around.

Now if I said something wrong about gameplay and not just dates that'd be something else.


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dogbiter

Senior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by hashinshin View Post
The issue then with this cycle is you started it at damages and defense. Instead of hitting gameplay you're hitting the numbers that gameplay generates. For example, a hard counter to a ranged army in WH40k is not a unit immune to ranged damage (though god knows they've probably created one of those already) but rather a unit that can move and charge 24+ inches.

Defense versus countering defense is effectively range versus melee. Instead of LW there should be a ranged AD item that focuses on getting you out of tough ****. Instead of BotRK there should be an item that gives ... well I don't really know what in DotA you guys deem acceptable but I'm sure there's something.

Since Udyr is just naturally tanky he cries manly tears since there's actually nothing he can do to stop himself from getting to the 100 armor point where LW becomes amazing. He reaches actually ~110 armor by having his passive + armor runes + level 18. His EXISTENCE is countered right now.

The Counter to Udyr should be frozen mallet, not LW. And his counter to FH should be boots of swiftness, which would in turn make him squishier and more open to regular gameplay.

Also Xpyh I'mma be honest, you can probably just add me in game or shoot me an email rather than using the forums as a PM machine. If you don't want to that's fine, but you know, throwing that out there.

Apply for a job at Riot. i dare you. oh gawd...


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DominatorV4

Senior Member

03-05-2013

Xy do you like have a giant chart that has all the items on the game on it. Does it display each items potential counters or something?


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ninbushido

Senior Member

03-05-2013

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