I think BORK is in a good spot, I just think it should cost more...

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Senior Member

03-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerglinator View Post
Did not know, edited.
No worries, I think it's really interesting to discuss what items are and aren't on certain maps, because we can assume that they're allowed or disallowed for deliberate reasons.


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Epses

Senior Member

03-04-2013

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Originally Posted by NegativeZ3ro View Post
Keep in mind that BoRK isn't available on Dominion... which is disappointing, but probably deliberate, considering the preponderance of high-health, tanky bruisers on the map (there was a huge outcry when the Blackfire Torch was put on that map, for that very reason). I wonder how the Dominion metagame would change if BoRK was added...
It's also because Kitae's Bloodrazor is still around in Dominion.
Which fulfills the same purpose, in a much more niche sort of way with magic damage % instead of physical.


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Conductor Fizz

Senior Member

03-04-2013

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Originally Posted by The SoulEmperor View Post
How about making it an item that specifically counter health stacking ? Like dealing massive bonus damage based on % of bonus health ( health gained from items ). But reduce other stats so that it's only cost effective when several enemies stack health.
So you're saying there should be an item to punish people for having items that make them tankier? Sounds like Thornmail 2.0 except targeted at everyone but ADCs.


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Tolinar

Senior Member

03-04-2013

I personally find all this attention being paid to the Blade of Ruin King fascinating compared to, say, Ravenous Hydra. Hydra is a really strong item that hasn't been seeing much use because of the space in the metagame it occupies; if you buy Hydra, you're (1) going to push your lane and (2) you're going to become nearly unkillable if you're in a wave of enemy minions because you'll passively heal so much. It forces a situation that must be responded to by the enemy; a "know or lose" type syndrome.

Another item like this, that is less of a "Hard Counter" item and more of a "Tactical Posturing" item is Youmuu's Ghostblade. The powerful 6-second surge of attackspeed and move speed, combined with a wide palette of stat advantages, creates a very balanced improvement to any champ that chooses to buy it, plus a personal effect which is useful for both chase and escape - but mostly good for chase.

What stands out about these items, and other items like Sword of the Divine, Banner of Command, Malady, Twin Shadows and Mikael's Crucible, is that these items 'create the strategy'.

Rather than working with champions and their inherent strategies, or countering the common strategy of a champ as we see in popular perennials like Randuin's, Thornmail, and Maw of Malmortius, these invent a new tactic - and if you see the item, you know the tactic is being used.

I mean, who takes Banner of Command and doesn't use the Promote effect? Who buys Twin Shadows and ignores the chaser ghosts? These items define the champion, not the other way around.

While it's heartening to see these items that act as "counters" to general strategies getting carefully tuned and balanced, honestly I think it's these 'limited strategy' items that should be getting more spotlight - because as they are, they're never going to see heavy use past mid-level play. The strategy the player is going to use, when they buy a Sword of the Divine, or Youmuu's Ghostblade, or Banner of Command, becomes pretty obvious.

Item Features, that define a strategy, in my opinion, need a looking at.


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03-04-2013

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Originally Posted by Epses View Post
It's also because Kitae's Bloodrazor is still around in Dominion.
Which fulfills the same purpose, in a much more niche sort of way with magic damage % instead of physical.
I think you said 'niche' when you meant 'ineffective'.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

03-04-2013
27 of 30 Riot Posts

Quote:
Are there any plans to lower prices EVEN MORE for FH some more or Thornmail in the near future? Or lower armor penetration, especially %armor penetration? I don't mean anything too drastic but just a few tweaks.

Also, what are your thoughts on MR right now?
At the end of some far future day - I feel like we might need to nerf Last Whisper to 30% and BC down to 20% but in order to do that - we probably need to people to both recognize the power of Randuin's Omen and such and hit that as well.

As for MR - MR feels weak because Void Staff is actually just a generalist damage item rather than a true MR counter so every AP worth his salt has one. That's probably a problem - but one that I'd like to watch a bit more.

Quote:
While it's heartening to see these items that act as "counters" to general strategies getting carefully tuned and balanced, honestly I think it's these 'limited strategy' items that should be getting more spotlight - because as they are, they're never going to see heavy use past mid-level play. The strategy the player is going to use, when they buy a Sword of the Divine, or Youmuu's Ghostblade, or Banner of Command, becomes pretty obvious.

Item Features, that define a strategy, in my opinion, need a looking at.
This is a great way to look at things, however - let me point out that there are two-goals:

1. Make sure generalist strategies have a counter.

2. Make sure that countering versus not countering them have good trade-offs and not be auto-loss when uncountered.

See, by ensuring #1 exists - we ensure that generalist strategies don't stomp the game.

By ensuring #2 exists - we ensure that strategic items can actually exist in the game.


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HeyLPG

Senior Member

03-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
So let me talk about Blade of the Ruined King a little - and what kind of led to the state of the item as it is on live.

Let's get this out of the way first - I screwed up here, if only by judging from the reactions and the state of the competitive solo queue. People feel that their AD carry builds are being unduly constrained and they feel the need to buy the item to counter itself. That, in itself, the AD carry versus AD carry case - is a problem.

So, let's get into the crunchy design portions of the thing and talk about it

1. The item is DPS efficient on squishy characters

Kind of.

Fundamentally, any item built off of current health will always look overpowered when it works. This is because the optimal case for current health damage never actually happens in game.

For example, let's say that BoRK breaks even with BT at 1700 health for the target. What this actually means is that BoRK breaks even with BT at 1700 health for the target assuming there is no other damage sources affected the target at all.

Given that almost every character has base damage on their skills and the like - the balance of numbers shifts terribly - For example, if your mage deals 600 AoE damage to the enemy team - BoRK needs to be extra-efficient to still be a valid HP counter at this point.

This is also why the active is as strong as it is - The use of the active nerfs the passive damage of the item.

2. Current % Health Paradigms are flawed - because the AD carry will follow after the burst casters


This is somewhat true to a certain extent - but the goal of a counter-item is to counter niche cases not strengthen already existing cases. The current BoRK for example, excels at self-peel and is especially good in 1v1 case against bruisers (regardless of what class you are.)

And the current health paradigm allows the item to essentially self-nerf itself when other elements of the game are strong (burst casters).

3. It is a mush-rush first item for a carry?

Kind of.

Again, this boils down to - How much damage is your support adding to your combo? In a Leona lane, for example, you'd be hard pressed to argue that their HP pool is actually 1200 - or how effective your autoattacks are.

4. The active adds more burst than the previous incarnation.

Potentially but it's generally weaker than the previous active - and that's why it rolled out - it was viewed as net neutral in most contexts.

150 + 0.5 TAD on an item with 45 AD roughly breaks even with the previous active at 1466 health - which is an HP threshold that only tanks/bruisers break early.

But the item is clearly overpowered on live and ruining the game experience!

Most likely. However, I'm more concerned with whether the item feels counterable at this stage. Rest assured though, we're not going to wait on the next patch to fix it. We knew going out that the item could have come out pretty crazy - and watching it over the weekend - it has been pretty crazy at is.

So we'll be hotfixing this as soon as we're comfortable with the server situation (Along with some other bugs.)
Thank you for making a statement on this. I can't stress enough how grateful we are to have you at Riot. I mean if it weren't for you, we'd only have the Lead Content Designer. Who does nothing. Thank you Xypherous.


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Epses

Senior Member

03-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diovresu View Post
So you're saying there should be an item to punish people for having items that make them tankier? Sounds like Thornmail 2.0 except targeted at everyone but ADCs.
The item's not meant to punish when it's meant to be a counter.
While I do not agree with the original idea. Tanks have the option of Armour/MR or HP stacking when they want to be tankier. It's just the current meta is centred around HP stacking since Penetration is so strong.


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Pigrat

Senior Member

03-04-2013

What about damage creep in general? It seems like its harder to stay alive as long... as ANYONE under all general cases, and that fights last almost no time at all.


In S2 they were short, though tapered off into eventual longer "chase downs". Now its just "splash, bang"... over. And in S1 they seemed MUCH longer.


Is this intentional?


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Daumski

Member

03-04-2013

I think the nerfs you are hot fixing to the item are way way too much. Why not reduce the Dmg to monsters, nerf the active to cutlass and bork since they are too good for lane,change the double dagger to recurve bow but reduce the cost of the recipe by like 150 to compensate. One reason the item is being rushed is because double dagger is way to easy to buy. Making it a recurve bow would make you have to save 1000 gold now instead being able to buy two 400 gold items which would slow down the advantages pushed by this item in lane.