I think BORK is in a good spot, I just think it should cost more...

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God Of Bronze 5

Senior Member

03-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
I generally find that adding more ways for players to distinguish themselves through clever use of actives or well-timed abilities to be a great way of adding skill to our game without necessarily making the game unclear or complicated.

Especially when those actives have long cooldowns.

I could be wrong though.
you're only wrong in the sense of who you are listening to.


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Vacus

Senior Member

03-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
That is - AD Carries are overpowered - and so everyone picks Malphite. However, games with Malphite in them, aren't fun. XD
wtf I love Malphite


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Breakstar

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Senior Member

03-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
I completely agree with you on oversaturation of armor penetration - the point where we disagree on is where the oversaturation is coming from.

I believe that we simply threw a bunch of armor penetration onto a bunch of S2 fighters - because their damage simply wasn't scaling into the late game at all. Xin Zhao. Kayle. Vi. Jarvan. Renekton. Etc.

However, if the problem was armor was innately too strong - that means that all future champions also needed a way to break armor. By the time we had gotten to Darius and Zed - It was becoming rapidly clear that armor was the problem - and that we simply glued a bunch of armor pen steroids to get around the fact on champions.
So the system had a problem (at the time, unrecognized), that resulted in the champion designers being forced to make individual solutions for each champion... basically, in Season 2 you built up a lot of design debt, and now that Season 3 fixed the underlying problem, there are a lot of leftover problems caused by the individual fixes (Darius' armor pen on E is the most prominent example I can remember of 'unexplained, bizarre chunks of armor penetration').

Wouldn't you say that that armor ubiquity is a large contributor to the absurd damage that AD carries presented in Season 2? In order to be useful through the free resists that so many bruisers had (plus the cheap armor they bought), carries needed to have truly ridiculous DPS.


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Burgleburgle

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Member

03-04-2013

Xyph, you seem to be running into a pretty straightforward problem in regards to defensive itemization, and I'd like to contribute a hypothesis.

Hypothesis: The absolute absence of strong MR + Health Items is the root cause of itemization imbalance.

Case:

1.) The early game MR itemization for tanky types is: Aegis->Bulwark and occasionally Spirit Visage. Tanky types, unless they're solo laners, tend to be unable to afford Maw of Malmortius or Abyssal Scepter as an early game character.

2.) Aegis and Spirit Visage are relatively weak, stat-wise. They give 35 and 50 magic resist, and 250 and 200 health, for 2300ish gold each. In comparison, Locket of the Iron Solari gives 450 health to go with the 45 armor, as well as a dandy defensive passive and CDR. While Aegis and SV also have CDR, they lack, dramatically, the early-game survivability against magic that Locket or Sunfire Cape give against AD.

3.) Locket, Sunfire, etcetera, are also relatively efficient ways to stack health. Heck, it's difficult to stack health _without_ picking up armor. It takes effort not to end up at 200 health. There is no equivalent "Well, I'd like to stack MR" path.

4.) Result: People stack health to counter Magic (generally the scarier early to mid game force), and pick up a ton of free armor with that.

5.) Secondary Result: Items that do physical end up not doing their job, and end up being overtuned - in order to function against bruisers with huge armor, they end up absolutely trucking anybody who is not a bruiser.

Solution: Make defensive itemization on bruisers require decisions. It's okay to have a "Pretty good against everything" option: That is Aegis. But there is no magic resist parallel to Locket; a cheap early game item which provides serious and a big chunk of MR. So everybody goes Locket first, gets disproportionately tanky, and you have to overcompensate with stuff like current BotRK, which does not massacre bruisers, but sure as **** massacres everybody else.

-Burgle

Edit: TL;DR : Many, many items have lots of health + armor for cheap. So bruisers build health and armor. To make BotRK hurt them, you have to overtune it so much that it murders everybody else. Fix bruiser itemization so health + armor aren't so correlated.


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Faptain Teemo

Member

03-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeVentNoir View Post
I don't use the active. At max AS, 100% crits, I deal 700+ damage per shot. (after armour reductions) 15% of 3000 is only 450, before armour. 15% of 5000 is still small compared to a single AA.
How do you get 2.5 AS, 100% crit chance and deal 700 damage?


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Pika Fox

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Senior Member

03-04-2013

I feel like part of the rush issue is that most of an AD carry's build is synergistic, whereas this item holds better as a stand-alone item. IE gives AD and crit.. but you dont get any AS or crit% to make it a great single-item damage pick up.

On the other hand, BoRK gives some AD, AS, and sustain. This is a bit more powerful in lane and sets you up better to farm with better DPS/survivabilty in teamfights without taking into account the possible crit-streak or heavy AS mutipliers. At the end of the day, IE -> crit/as item will end up being better in the long run, but BoRK is a better single-item grab imo.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

03-04-2013
24 of 30 Riot Posts

Quote:
I've always thought this was intended, in that I've always perceived bruisers to be at their strongest in the midgame, and then fall off come lategame. Why were the developers trying to make bruisers scale into lategame at all?
It's a sentiment that every character class should feel like they are able to have a meaningful impact on the game as a whole - which gets warped a little when protecting a single weak source causes a little bit of stagnation overall to strategic team comps.

While the pattern of 'the bruiser simply becomes a front-line interceptor and a peel for your carry' is a cool pattern - a major goal is to figure out ways to make alternate team compositions viable and strong - if not all the way to the competitive play - at the very least good enough to be run for most players and be fun.

Quote:
So the system had a problem (at the time, unrecognized), that resulted in the champion designers being forced to make individual solutions for each champion... basically, in Season 2 you built up a lot of design debt, and now that Season 3 fixed the underlying problem, there are a lot of leftover problems caused by the individual fixes (Darius' armor pen on E is the most prominent example I can remember of 'unexplained, bizarre chunks of armor penetration').

Wouldn't you say that that armor ubiquity is a large contributor to the absurd damage that AD carries presented in Season 2? In order to be useful through the free resists that so many bruisers had (plus the cheap armor they bought), carries needed to have truly ridiculous DPS.
Design debt is a great way to describe it - Yes. There was a ton of design debt that we essentially paved over through champion designs in S2, in order to keep S2 stable.

S3 has basically unearthed almost all of that design debt - but it allows us to lift limits and do crazier things when design debt isn't constricting our design space.


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Bump N Grind

Senior Member

03-04-2013

@Xypherous

Have you considered making the item high on AS (like 50-60 range) and pretty low on AD (like 15-20)? Then making the %HP damage slightly stronger.

The way I see the end result is you're not likely going to buy BRK every game. The dramatically low AD would make the item feel less effective than BT in an IE/PD/?? build. Consequently on Bruisers whose kits don't require them to auto-attack frequently for maximum impact will likely shy away from the item. However, if the enemy has multiple high HP targets then you could replace PD with BRK to deal more damage. Also, AS-heavy Bruisers like Irelia, Shyvana, and Udyr who don't really care about high AD that much will still enjoy having BRK in their build.

As for counters, it's like a weaker Rock/Paper/Scissors. - IE/BT/LW/BRK counters super high HP/low armor which counters BT/PD/LW/IE which counters high Armor/ mild HP which counters IE/BT/LW/BRK.

Again, that's how I see it. :3


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Nitroll

Junior Member

03-04-2013

When attempting to balance Botrk, is the build path of the item being considered? A huge reason why it is so "attractive" for ADC vs ADC match ups is the simple fact that every piece of the item is ~400g, meaning you will always come back into lane being stronger, avoiding any lull period where you need more gold to finish an item, say a BF sword.


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LeVentNoir

Senior Member

03-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faptain Teemo View Post
How do you get 2.5 AS, 100% crit chance and deal 700 damage?
Merc Boots with Furor (cos it's awesome).

For the real damage. Twin IE: 140 bonus AD, 50% crit chance, 25% extra crit damage.
Phantom Dancer: 30% Crit chance, 55% attack speed.
Static Shiv 20% crit chance, 40% attack speed, plus critical magic damage.

Thats 100% Crit chance, 95% Bonus attack speed, and extra magic and crit damage. Add masteries which increase crit damage, increase AS on crit.

The final part is BotRK, which gives MORE AS, AD and %HP shred. PLay with MF, press W for bullet spam, and shred. 100% Crits is AWESOME.