I think BORK is in a good spot, I just think it should cost more...

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Worst Darius S3

Senior Member

03-04-2013

When will the hotfix happen?


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

03-04-2013
21 of 30 Riot Posts

Quote:

The one side effect of BotRK being so prevalent is as an ADC or Bruiser who builds it, you actually got attack speed early on. This in my mind makes the fights more interesting because instead of all-out burst being the main force of fights there's a bit more maneuvering and AAing (for the most part, the active adds to much burst).

How does your team feel about the state of auto-attacking especially as the game moves into more involved fights?
In general, that's why I wasn't afraid of a heavy attack speed item that didn't have movement speed on it.

We recognize that attack speed is actually really hard to use and pretty hard to optimize for - and that there's a lot of interesting play/counterplay to maximizing your use of attack speed.

However, when you add movement speed to the mix - attack speed and movement speed strengthen each other. You are better able to use attack speed the more movement speed you have (due to less distance needed to walk to get back in range) and better able to use the movement speed you have (because your attack frame eases up).

We haven't really thought about pure AA's that much - except that we most likely over-compensate on bruisers to make their autoattack uptime much much higher than they quite need. (Vi, for example, suffers from this.)


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Akava

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Senior Member

03-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Let me present to you two options.

1. Option A - There are no counters to it in the game.

2. Option B - Counters exist to Option B.

How overpowered does Option B has to be before you will take it to Option A?

This is otherwise known as, Irelia syndrome. Irelia has no obvious counters. Anyone who has to compete with Irelia but have valid counters of their own - becomes insanely overpowered by comparison... say.. a certain broken-sword using champion?
Speaking of Riven, I liked playing her in S2 but I was pretty bad with her and Armor made it worse for me. That being said, I haven't seen her at all since PreSeason started. Is she still in a good place? I want to try to pick her up again, but I'm honestly at a lost on her both viablewise and Item wise.


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GreekAsTheGods

Senior Member

03-04-2013

Honestly... it sort of feel like the main problem (besides the obvious BotRK ones) is that Penetration is still sitting at a ridiculous place. If people are still stacking HP as their defensive stats even after Warmogs and Sunfire have taken hits on patches, might that not say something about how unappealing it is to purchase armor/MR now?

Even as an ADC I've found myself looking for an item to help me avoid being bursted only to realize that purchasing a Negatron cloak will do almost nothing for me due to how much of the item Pen will be able to negate. I then have to either purchase knowing that most of the item will just be used making up for the enemy's flat pen or just buy a health item and hope to soak the damage unmitigated with a bigger HP pool.

If people still buy HP even after multiple HP nerfs, and the original trend of buying HP was started by the change in how penetration acted.... Ya know?


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Morphine

Senior Member

03-04-2013

I'm a little worried that characters that look to build attack speed as their primary or close to primary statistic are otherwise pretty underwhelming in S3 (looking at Irelia, Shyvana, Udyr etc). I get that live BotRK was an attempt to address this that was overdone - are there any plans in the works for other AS items or buffs that might favor them? I just don't want to have to shove all the fun AS heroes in the closet again...


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Praestigium

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Member

03-04-2013

Hey Xyph, just want to quickly thank you for your communication with the player-base of the game, I've followed your posts for two years now and I thoroughly enjoy your replies to all the questions you get around to, if you don't mind, here's a quick one from me.

What's your view on the belief that the players will almost always naturally be able to come with up a solution to a problematic hero/item/team composition in game? Do you think that developers and technicians can sometimes make the mistake of nerfing or buffing something which in a few months time wouldn't be a problematic issue?

I'm trying to think of a time where the player-base found a way to deal with a major issue that had occurred with League of Legends, but it seems that it's seldom been the case, with Riot almost always inevitably having to intervene.


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0xiDIzE

Member

03-04-2013

Wouldn't BoTRK be fine if you just dropped one of the daggers from the recipe, dropped it down to 20% AS, and kept the cost the same? Doesn't seem like the changes need to be extreme to balance it. I mean, it was essentially fine before the changes, people just didn't use it and kept complaining about HP stacking. The changes seem like they were mostly put in place to get people to notice that hey, a counter to HP stacking exists.


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Vì Bot

Senior Member

03-04-2013

ily xypherous


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

03-04-2013
22 of 30 Riot Posts

Quote:
I mean you have an ADC sitting on like 43%+5+innate from champions+ BC. I think this is mainly a problem with how much armor shred is in the game as of right now. A lot of the main champions played all have good armor shred abilities. I think were facing over saturation more then anything.
I completely agree with you on oversaturation of armor penetration - the point where we disagree on is where the oversaturation is coming from.

I believe that we simply threw a bunch of armor penetration onto a bunch of S2 fighters - because their damage simply wasn't scaling into the late game at all. Xin Zhao. Kayle. Vi. Jarvan. Renekton. Etc.

However, if the problem was armor was innately too strong - that means that all future champions also needed a way to break armor. By the time we had gotten to Darius and Zed - It was becoming rapidly clear that armor was the problem - and that we simply glued a bunch of armor pen steroids to get around the fact on champions.

Quote:
What's your view on the belief that the players will almost always naturally be able to come with up a solution to a problematic hero/item/team composition in game? Do you think that developers and technicians can sometimes make the mistake of nerfing or buffing something which in a few months time wouldn't be a problematic issue?
I believe that players will be able to naturally come up to a solution to a problematic hero/item/team comp - However, my issue with it is that the solutions are typically worse than the original problem.

That is - AD Carries are overpowered - and so everyone picks Malphite. However, games with Malphite in them, aren't fun. XD


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S9n9rgY

Senior Member

03-04-2013

Who thought it was OK to give ADs a burst nuke/slow/speed-up and % damage.. BotRK is 1000x better than DFG and has an easier build path. It need something taken away, I mean its now better than Liandries, better than DFG (DFG has no slow/sprint)... Better than BT PD Trinity

Can you at least give DFG a 3 second silence or a shield for the amount of damage dealt to for DFG'd target or something anything...