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RockJockey

Senior Member

02-28-2013

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Riot Pwyff

Player Communications

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03-01-2013
22 of 23 Riot Posts

Y'all gave me a pile of reading material, and I decided to play two ranked games with Tamat instead (we won one and lost one, so our friendship is still intact).

So let me get to a few points here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by VoidInsanity View Post
WAT YOU SMOKING!? Both of them champions counter morde hard the second they hit level 6 if they play smart, especially kassadin. In regards to the topic in question, I made a rather long post explaining why Morde is "outclassed" by everyone that you may wish to "Print".
I'll admit that I speak from anecdotal evidence, but in Season 2 I was about 12-0 as Mordekaiser in Gold ~1600/1700. Completely undefeated because I only picked Mordekaiser against LB and Kassadin, and then I bought wards and shoved the lane all day. Both LB and Kass have a lot of difficulty farming under tower, and Kassadin in particular is susceptible to siphon harass when he goes in to last hit. If Kass uses his Q to harass, Morde can literally siphon Kass before he gets silenced, which lets his shield absorb the brunt of Kass's Q. LB burst at 6 is admittedly scary, but if she's underfarmed (which she will be if you push to tower and force her to farm under it for the entire lane phase), her bite is significantly dulled.

On a curious note, at what level of play do you see Kassadin / LB rolling Mordekaiser?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackIronBeast View Post
Say something about Mordekaiser in this thread about reworking him http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...1#post35143185 or at least bump it so everyone who sees RIOT will click on it
So I read your links, and I'll admit I'm not sure if I'm fully sold on a Mordekaiser remake. In fact, the poll you linked me (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...s&pollid=62635) actually points to the fact that 70% of the voters voted that Mordekaiser either just needs a buff or that he's fine as he is. I'll also note that probably only Mordekaiser enthusiasts would enter to vote on a poll titled "Mordekaiser rework."

While it's true that Mordekaiser lacks any gap closers or chasers (unless he packs Rylais), his up-front burst and innate tankiness with his shield mechanics make him a rather strong pick whenever I see him. There are certainly some hard counters (Lux comes to mind), but I don't know if I want to jump into a discussion with some hyperbole like "[Mordekaiser is] broken like no other champion has ever been before." If you really want to have a discussion, a more objective approach would help ;p

I'm not trying to shut you down here, but an argument for a champion's viability (or lack thereof) that is based off of his or her stat growth / base stats is a tenuous at best. That shield Mordekaiser has is just incredible. He trades health for a shield buffer, essentially, and he does so VERY efficiently. If you're skirmishing with your opponent in lane (which you should be), and you're absorbing damage via your shield, Morde can pretty much double or triple his effective HP with his shield. I can't think of any other champion that gets that kind of efficient conversion.

Does Mordekaiser need a gap closer or a slow to "keep up" with the game? I wonder if his lack of a hard CC (or even soft CC) is something that is inherently - and thematically - built into him. Maybe we should look to other solutions - rather than adding crowd control to him - that can help him while still keeping him thematically coherent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockJockey View Post
@ Riot Pwyff Concerning Shyvana.

My focus on Black Cleaver is simply because it's one of the most efficient Armor Penetration items, the same logic can be applied to her new found use of Youmoo's Ghostblade and Last Whisperer. Essentially 3/4th's of her kit is tied around Magic Damage, which is not something she can afford to build penetration for and still perform ideally.

........

Thank you for listening intently to my thoughts. My hope is that words reach the right ears.
Shyvana actually deals about equal physical + magic damage so she's a hybrid damage dealer in that sense. I like the idea of Burnout lasting a second longer, however, and I feel it might be your strongest suggestion.

To be honest, I think a lot of things on Shyvana's kit feel "floaty" or a bit underwhelming - specifically her E and the drag on her ultimate. Her E is just a little... meh, while Shyvana's ult has its own problems I listed earlier about overshooting opponents, etc. From my perspective, I one day hope her "floatiness" will be fixed, and maybe her E tuned up, so maybe that's something that could be focused on in discussions to bring her up to parity.

Anyway, I'm just saying I like the Burnout suggestion specifically because it's a buff that compliments Shyvana's core gameplay theme (speed) without trying to do the "Mary Su" buff of giving her that one thing she needs to be the perfect bruiser.

---

Quote:
UDYR
There's been a lot of Udyr discussion, with some people taking up the other side as well, so the only thing I can really add is that Udyr is cool.

Also whoever compared Udyr to Riven, claiming that Riven is a superior Udyr.... That's just a weird comparison, dude.


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Send Me Lewds

Senior Member

03-01-2013

Pwyff, are you perhaps from the south originally? I keep seeing you use "y'all".


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108th Fruit

Senior Member

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BlackIronBeast

Senior Member

03-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Pwyff View Post
Does Mordekaiser need a gap closer or a slow to "keep up" with the game? I wonder if his lack of a hard CC (or even soft CC) is something that is inherently - and thematically - built into him. Maybe we should look to other solutions - rather than adding crowd control to him - that can help him while still keeping him thematically coherent.
First, I'd like to thank you for your time to look over those threads and respond with an extremely well thought out and coherent answer.

I personally didn't think he needs a rework myself, I voted on the poll thread for him to have just a slight buff.

I would just like to see him have either a soft CC or gap closer, he doesn't need hard CC. The reason being, it's quite difficult to land his Q which has to be his next melee attack. If that move itself had an increased range to it, like Trundle's bite, that alone would make me happy.

Thanks again, you're awesome!

P.S.

Or even a speed boost/reduced CC effects on his W would be lovely so he can catch up to people quicker/have an easier time running after the enemy ADC. Afterall, "Creeping Death" does kind of sound like something that would make him quicker and fits thematically to the character, imho ^_^


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Riot Pwyff

Player Communications

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03-01-2013
23 of 23 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackIronBeast View Post
First, I'd like to thank you for your time to look over those threads and respond with an extremely well thought out and coherent answer.

I personally didn't think he needs a rework myself, I voted on the poll thread for him to have just a slight buff.

I would just like to see him have either a soft CC or gap closer, he doesn't need hard CC. The reason being, it's quite difficult to land his Q which has to be his next melee attack. If that move itself had an increased range to it, like Trundle's bite, that alone would make me happy.

Thanks again, you're awesome!

P.S.

Or even a speed boost/reduced CC effects on his W would be lovely so he can catch up to people quicker/have an easier time running after the enemy ADC. Afterall, "Creeping Death" does kind of sound like something that would make him quicker and fits thematically to the character, imho ^_^
I definitely get you about that confusing Q - I feel like it's so satisfying to land, but it gives Mordekaiser this weird deadzone where he can hit you with siphon but not his Q, so it just gets wonky.

Honestly, from a thematic point of view, Mordekaiser is just weird. He's a mage, but he looks like... a bruisy-tanky-damage thing. I wonder if his ability clash is a result of that incoherency.

Quote:
The reason why BotRK was changed was not because they wanted players to buy it - it was because it was in a confused position that overlapped too heavily with items like Bloodthirster. The objective was to give BotRK its own unique space, and positioning it within the attack speed slot allowed it that breathing space.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiftsLikeGaston View Post
Pwyff, are you perhaps from the south originally? I keep seeing you use "y'all".
I'm a Canadian from our two big metropolitan centers (Vancouver and Toronto). I actually say y'all because the alternative - all of you - sounds too aggressive for my taste, which is a reflection of just how Canadian I am.

I could say all of yous, but then I'm getting to mugsy.

A friend of mine in California is from the South, and he sometimes says "all y'all" to emphasize everyone. I should start saying that.

All y'alls can take a break now, as I am going to sleep. It's 2:30am heeeeere.


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Mewuvmyself

Senior Member

03-01-2013

Hi diamond 1 (3k+ games) udyr main person thingy here. I'm really, really scared for Udyr buffs if you actually do it. Udyr has incredible high dmg and 1 of the best sustain abilties (turtle stance) on a very short cd. His only weakness literally is being kited. I greatly enjoy his current playstyle, of being an anti-bruiser/assassin/diver by being the ultimate shield with spikes in it that I ram into the front line trying to kill my carry <3.

If there is any talk for buffing udyr my only suggestions would be allow turtle to heal from tiger/phoenix dmg (too encourage smarter stance dancing) or get rid of the arm/mr passive on monkey agility and slightly (I mean slightly) increase bear ms lvl 1-4 but keep 5 the same.

DO NOT GIVE UDYR TENACITY/MS SLOW REDUCTION OR WE WOULD BASICALLY HAVE RELEASE XIN ZHAO TO DEAL WITH...


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BlackIronBeast

Senior Member

03-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Pwyff View Post
I definitely get you about that confusing Q - I feel like it's so satisfying to land, but it gives Mordekaiser this weird deadzone where he can hit you with siphon but not his Q, so it just gets wonky.

Honestly, from a thematic point of view, Mordekaiser is just weird. He's a mage, but he looks like... a bruisy-tanky-damage thing. I wonder if his ability clash is a result of that incoherency.

All y'alls can take a break now, as I am going to sleep. It's 2:30am heeeeere.
Totally agree with you there, that's how I always felt about his Q and E. When I first played this game and saw the tutorial video, I saw Mordekaiser's sprite and immediately said, "I'm maining him, that's me!" and named myself, "Black Iron Beast," to reflect that. I was under the impression that he'd either be a tank or a strong melee physical damage dealing damage--kind of like how Death Knights are in WoW--that's how I wanted to play him but he is how he is, a mage...either way, he's just so cool to me that I HAVE to play him.

Good night! Ya'll come back now, ya here!


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BigSocks

Junior Member

03-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Pwyff View Post
If you could change anything about Udyr, what would you do about him? Shyvana and Udyr - to me - differentiate themselves via movement speed (Burnout and Bear Stance), so with proper itemization they can be consistent field disruptions while sticking to their targets. The issue, of course, is getting to your target first, but I feel like that's the trade-off you give for a speedy, sticky autoattacker (they're also great bodyblockers).
The issue (I feel) is not that udyr and shyvana are bad, but as u said so easily kited. Unlike xin, with his gap closer as u mentioned.

Take a look at how many new(ish) champs have dashes - escapes - not gap closers. ez, elise, ahri, cait, corki, trist, khazix, lee, zed, and a few iv missed. These are fairly popular picks at the pro level. If your team's tank cant stick to one of these champs, what good are they? The fall of udyr (particularly) seems to coincide with the rise of ez and lee?

And for you pwyff:
why did sean connery's dog keep pooping around the house?
because he told him to s*it


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VoidInsanity

Senior Member

03-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Pwyff View Post
I'll admit that I speak from anecdotal evidence, but in Season 2 I was about 12-0 as Mordekaiser in Gold ~1600/1700. Completely undefeated because I only picked Mordekaiser against LB and Kassadin, and then I bought wards and shoved the lane all day. Both LB and Kass have a lot of difficulty farming under tower, and Kassadin in particular is susceptible to siphon harass when he goes in to last hit. If Kass uses his Q to harass, Morde can literally siphon Kass before he gets silenced, which lets his shield absorb the brunt of Kass's Q. LB burst at 6 is admittedly scary, but if she's underfarmed (which she will be if you push to tower and force her to farm under it for the entire lane phase), her bite is significantly dulled.

On a curious note, at what level of play do you see Kassadin / LB rolling Mordekaiser?
LB/Kassadin will roll over Mordekaiser by avoiding him and constantly Ganking the other lanes. Mordekaiser can not chase after them and he can not engage them 1v1 outside of the lane. They can both escape and kill him at will when played smart, because he can not chase them and most of Mordes damage is melee. Mordekaiser beats them early 1v1 if they are dumb enough to duel him, if they are smart and abuse their mobility/utility they can leave him in the dust. Morde has no way to avoid wards or get around the map quickly, all he can do is farm.

If Kass/LB survives to level 6 by having the jungler camp Morde a little (really easy to do, Morde has no way to escape and over extends easily) they can easily Dash-Silence-Kill Morde at will the second they acquire the blue buff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Pwyff View Post
Does Mordekaiser need a gap closer or a slow to "keep up" with the game? I wonder if his lack of a hard CC (or even soft CC) is something that is inherently - and thematically - built into him. Maybe we should look to other solutions - rather than adding crowd control to him - that can help him while still keeping him thematically coherent.
What Mordekaiser needs is a Powershift and some minor skill reworking. All of his power is in his ultimate IF it kills an adc, this is just wrong. His passive is too weak earlygame compared to other shields as he can not use it defensively and he is seriously screwed over by ignite. He needs to be weaker lategame, but have some utility in exchange so he isn't an underpowered feedbag if he is screwed over earlygame. I personally like the champion because he has no utility. What I would really like is the shield degen to not kick in until Mordekaiser is out of combat, and for his auto attacks to trigger his passive. This would make junglekaiser viable while rewarding mordes for being aggressive. Would also be nice if Creeping Death gave a small amount of instant shield if Mordekaiser casts it on himself, so he has a defensive option (even if it is a rather minor one).

Oh, 1 thing that REALLY needs to be sorted - The cooldown on Creeping Death. 20 Second base cooldown is insanely high for what it is, even when maxed out 12 seconds is still really long.