@Riot confused about reasoning for Zed's Q change

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Thaddeus Maxwell

Member

02-28-2013

In this recent patch you increased Zed's Q damage while taking damage from his E. The reason you gave was that this was intended to make shuriken "a higher risk, higher reward alternative to Shadow Slash." Basically I am confused as to how a long range poke/harass has greater risk than a melee range self cast ability that requires you to be near the target to do damage. The only way could think of this being true was that it would be easier to hit slash than shuriken after luring, but even then you are required to all in on top of your target, so you are at high risk either way. Is there someone who could clear this up for me?

@CertainlyT
@Samizul
@Morello
@Pwyff
@Balance reds


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Yago Xiten

Senior Member

02-28-2013

I would imagine because as of now, it's annoying to lane against Zed when his harass always consists of instantly placing a Living Shadow and hitting you with Shadow Slash.

It's obnoxious and virtually impossible to avoid.


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Dr Clueless PhD

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Senior Member

02-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thaddeus Maxwell View Post
In this recent patch you increased Zed's Q damage while taking damage from his E. The reason you gave was that this was intended to make shuriken "a higher risk, higher reward alternative to Shadow Slash." Basically I am confused as to how a long range poke/harass has greater risk than a melee range self cast ability that requires you to be near the target to do damage. The only way could think of this being true was that it would be easier to hit slash than shuriken after luring, but even then you are required to all in on top of your target, so you are at high risk either way. Is there someone who could clear this up for me?

@CertainlyT
@Samizul
@Morello
@Pwyff
@Balance reds
According to my friend who plays Zed, it is much easier to hit your lane opponent with Shadow Slash than it is with the shuriken. Couldn't tell you why, but that's what I've heard.


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Thaddeus Maxwell

Member

02-28-2013

I'd argue this really doesn't change that as the w>e combo usually just sets you up to be hit with the double q, in fact this may just make that combo even stronger.


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Riot Pwyff

Player Communications

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03-01-2013
1 of 3 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thaddeus Maxwell View Post
In this recent patch you increased Zed's Q damage while taking damage from his E. The reason you gave was that this was intended to make shuriken "a higher risk, higher reward alternative to Shadow Slash." Basically I am confused as to how a long range poke/harass has greater risk than a melee range self cast ability that requires you to be near the target to do damage. The only way could think of this being true was that it would be easier to hit slash than shuriken after luring, but even then you are required to all in on top of your target, so you are at high risk either way. Is there someone who could clear this up for me?

@CertainlyT
@Samizul
@Morello
@Pwyff
@Balance reds
Some information: it's harder to land a flat Q than it is to land W>E because Q has a longer telegraph (visually) than W>E. In this regard, Thaddeus has it right in saying that doing the W>E combo to double Q is now stronger because you usually only hit a single E. The variable is, of course, on whether you can land that double Q properly.

In other words, this change was probably a way to incentivise Zed players to attempt that double Q shuriken hit if they want the big damage (and if you miss, you deal with the heavy energy cost). I'm not a Zed player, unfortunately, but it could be that harassing via W>E was more efficient than attempting the double Q shuriken combo, so they wanted to push for that a bit more.

It was also very briefly mentioned that Zed is a ninja, so his shurikens should do damage. C'mon.


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Buk Wild

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Senior Member

03-01-2013

they want you to max Q first


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kthnxbai

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Recruiter

03-01-2013

my guess is that W-->E was just way too faceroll easy so they nerfed it


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Skaarrjj

Senior Member

03-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buk Wild View Post
they want you to max Q first
**** Q. That ability is garbage except when he ults.


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Skaarrjj

Senior Member

03-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by kthnxbai View Post
my guess is that W-->E was just way too faceroll easy so they nerfed it
The champion is already hard, and they want to make him HARDER? **** logic I guess.


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The Fizznity

Senior Member

03-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Pwyff View Post
Some information: it's harder to land a flat Q than it is to land W>E because Q has a longer telegraph (visually) than W>E. In this regard, Thaddeus has it right in saying that doing the W>E combo to double Q is now stronger because you usually only hit a single E. The variable is, of course, on whether you can land that double Q properly.

In other words, this change was probably a way to incentivise Zed players to attempt that double Q shuriken hit if they want the big damage (and if you miss, you deal with the heavy energy cost). I'm not a Zed player, unfortunately, but it could be that harassing via W>E was more efficient than attempting the double Q shuriken combo, so they wanted to push for that a bit more.

It was also very briefly mentioned that Zed is a ninja, so his shurikens should do damage. C'mon.
Here's the thing: It still doesn't do that.

E's base is still such that given the fact you can cast 3 Es for every 2 Qs, E is more reliable, roughly equivalent base damage, cheaper in energy cost, and offers more slow to stick with via shadow. It's just inferior to Q right now, and will be unless you nerf the hell out of it. Which really kills the uniqueness that E max on Zed brings (unstoppable steady health mulching machine) and makes him another bland QEW/QWE maxer.

Edit: If you're able to hit shadow, then Q slightly outperforms E. But in terms of risk and effort for reward, it's really not worth it, and I don't think it should be made worth it.


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