So now at level 1 Hecarim will only have to do 300 damage to hit the cap

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flatherd

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03-01-2013

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Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
Personally I don't know if he got overall faster or slower in the jungle. But Deathpony is overpowered and needed to be nerfed.

Then why would you guys approve a change whithout checking this?


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Matthevv

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03-01-2013

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Originally Posted by Tainted Moose View Post
I love how no-one has even mentioned lizard elder was nerfed too which I think was basically shooting the dead horse with a cannon.
People mentioned it, however it is not that big of a deal. That item is one of the big reasons why Hecarim was so overtuned for season 3. I don't know what the picks and bans at your elo are like but in platinum Hecarim is a very common ban/pick and he is definitely overtuned.

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Originally Posted by flatherd View Post
Then why would you guys approve a change whithout checking this?
Phreak is not on the live design team, he does not actually have the best opinions on the matter. He is trying to relay what he has been told by members of the live design team without actually knowing all the details himself. Phreak's job at Riot is pretty much only making champion spotlights and doing the LCS thing.


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Lunar Lightning

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03-01-2013

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Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
I'm looking forward to how you feel about his jungling after the changes. I know we do a lot of testing on things like this, especially jungle clears: It's really easy to say, "Yeah I went Machete+5, got a leash on Blue, and cleared to level 4 at X:XX with YYY Health and Z potions left." That's one thing we do very successfully with our jungle changes.

I wasn't around when that got tested, but I trust whatever Live Design came up with.
I can gank 2-3 times and wait until lvl 6 for first recall with hecarim currently, i highly doubt i will be able to do that anymore especially since you say lvl 4 recall.

I don't understand how you consider it an early game buff


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Xemeron

Senior Member

03-01-2013

Wait wait wait...
You want to nerf his Lategame by trashing his Early game with 6s bonus Cooldown on his heal?
Logic?


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Cronovey

Senior Member

03-01-2013

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Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
When would that ever actually happen though? On the first clear you're supposed to have a hard leash on Blue, then use Smite on Red, and then you're going to be like level 5+ and have Spirit Stone and maybe a Pickaxe and would still clear it in just a few seconds.
Unfortunately, not all of us are playing at super high ELO with competent players at all times. The majority of players are fending for themselves in the jungle and not getting smiteless blue leashes. While this may be true for some players (professionals, Plat+ divisions) this generally doesn't hold true in lower level play.

Quote:
And again he's getting faster clear speed through the Q buff, meaning less damage taken. I think it equals out.
I'm not entirely convinced but we'll see I suppose. 6.6 extra damage each over the course of 10 seconds at a camp nets you around ~38 extra damage on things that are sitting near 1000 health. It may have an impact in killing the smaller minions faster, perhaps, but the difference there isn't much to begin with.

Quote:
If you aren't ganking at least twice through your first set of double buffs, I feel like you're doing it wrong or your opponents ward like bosses. Of course it's going to add more health to him overall.W is obviously a rank 4-5 nerf. No way it isn't. Hecarim's getting nerfed; that's certain. But when the thread is "Wow dude my level 1 clear sucks harder now" that's just not true.
I don't disagree here, although most of the healing you're receving in your ganks is from the minion wave itself when your W is on. Health bars are so small at this level that it's going to be difficult to see a large difference in this, I'm afraid.

I don't think these will ruin him by any means, the sky isn't falling or anything. Just sad to see that he's being nerfed and buffed at the same time and it's being advertised as helping his early game when it's really not doing much at all for it.


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Tenjin

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03-01-2013

Ill just sit back and watch Heca's win rate fall down, nobody play him anymore and expect Riot to see the unnecessary changes... Phreak said he needed a nerf because he was op, then PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD EXPLAIN ME THAT 56% WIN RATE SINGED THAT NEVER GOT TOUCHED... every single champ that went on high win rates got nerfed. Ezreal is even below 50% now, they are nerfing amumu again, and yet Singed remains happy with the 2nd~1s highest win rate again...


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Kelg

Senior Member

03-01-2013

So when is it Akali's turn?


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Taliesin

Senior Member

03-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
When would that ever actually happen though? On the first clear you're supposed to have a hard leash on Blue, then use Smite on Red, and then you're going to be like level 5+ and have Spirit Stone and maybe a Pickaxe and would still clear it in just a few seconds.
This is assuming an ideal start, which is fallacious. Many factors from invades to uncooperative players can shift the variables around. Yes, if you're getting a picture-perfect start, you'll be fine. But that's not 100% of games, now is it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
I'm looking forward to how you feel about his jungling after the changes. I know we do a lot of testing on things like this, especially jungle clears: It's really easy to say, "Yeah I went Machete+5, got a leash on Blue, and cleared to level 4 at X:XX with YYY Health and Z potions left." That's one thing we do very successfully with our jungle changes.

I wasn't around when that got tested, but I trust whatever Live Design came up with.
This kind of ties into the above. I've no doubt that in ideal circumstances, Hec will still clear all right. It's the edge cases I'm worried about. Because I've got a nagging suspicion that if he gets harried at all, he's going to fall apart rather completely. Still, thanks for taking the time out of your night to talk with us. I'm feeling a little less glum about the changes and will at least give new Hec a fair shake before replacing him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tainted Moose View Post
I love how no-one has even mentioned lizard elder was nerfed too which I think was basically shooting the dead horse with a cannon.
At least we can choose which items to build. We're stuck with the other changes. If it's really bad, I'll just leave it at machete and then sell that for a different item.


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Henry Plainview

Senior Member

03-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tainted Moose View Post
I love how no-one has even mentioned lizard elder was nerfed too which I think was basically shooting the dead horse with a cannon.
Eh, I always went tank with golem anyway, I guess I should have at least tried lizard but I never felt like I was ahead enough to pull it off.


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Matthevv

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03-01-2013

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Originally Posted by Cheeto101 View Post
They arn't. Hec has a speed up and a knockback that is only useful if he is in front of the enemy or the enemy is in front of a wall. So his CC is, at best, average, but his early damage is mediocre to poor on top of all of that.

Add that together, and his early ganks are no where near as scary as many of the other top tier junglers (Lee, Mao, J4, Xin, Vi etc.) No one is picking Hec for his early ganks. They are picking him for his initiation and his late game.
Ok seriously dude I really cant tell if you are trolling or serious. If you are actually being serious then you do not know very much about the game. I really didn't think Hecarim had that high of a skill cap but it looks like I was mistaken. Hecarim's early game ganks are huge, not only can he reliably knock his targets back towards his teammates during a gank, but he is also the best champion for getting to the enemy players during early game. He moves so fast towards his target that by the time he is spotted he is already doing his knockback.

Also you really must be trolling because Xin and Vi are also getting nerfed this patch so I have no clue why you bothered listing them for their ganks.